Has White Wolf gotten too greedy?

[FenrisUlf]

Hi all,

I'm sure a lot of you know that White Wolf (creators of such great RPGs as Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage, Demon, etc.) recently recalled all their old books to redo and re-release their entire line in a completely new setting and with completely new rules.

My question is aimed at WW fans, both former and current: is this the last straw for you? I attended a con recently, and whenever someone mentioned WW it was with some variation of 'those greedy [blanks]' added. The opinion seems to be that WW's new direction is just a way to pry more long green out of the fans' hands, and that they're throwing out a great setting just so they can get everyone to buy the same books all over again. Just about everyone stated that they're not going to touch anything WW does again. (As to how many actually keep their word, well...)

I have to admit, back when I was a WW fan, I got more than little tired of 'completely new editions' coming out every few years, often having completely reworked some of the most basic aspects of the setting in the process. When they finally got up to 3rd Ed of everything, I just gave up.

So -- White Wolf: Greedy, just another publisher, or what?

[BlackSword]

I think its just another publisher. Its similar to what TSR went through in the early 90s. White Wolf at first was edgy, cool, and something for a gamer that was more refined then just a dungeon crawler. Then WW became successful, and became 'The Man.'

I collected WW stuff for a few years, and haven't played any WW game for about 4 years now. The stuff from the mid-90s was pretty good, though they always figured out the best way to sell more books was to include new rules in them. One thing they should (IMHO) do is print a rulebook with the core rules, and then each subject book would have specific rules for that subject (frex the Werewolf rulebook would provide info on gifts, rage, etc). Most of the disadvantages, skills and traits are the same for every game.

I don't mind the restart (of course I probably won't buy anything unless one group of friends decides to run it). They were suffering from pretty bad system-bloat, hopefully they won't repeat that mistake.

[Blue]

I'm not aware of the "recalling" anything. Like any other game company, the stuff remains on the shelves at the local stores, and will just eventually be out of stock.

It's not the last straw for me at all. I understand why companies do these things. They can't stay afloat without new products. Of course I've have had more respect for them if they didn't post that bogus "explanation letter" on their site that said essentially, "We're ending the world because we'd be tremendous posers if we didn't". They should have said, "We want to start over with a reworked product line because that's how we make money." You see, I can respect that.

I'll check out their core book to see if I like it. But ultimately whether we play the new WW or not is up to the WW GMs in our group (We have 2). If they don't like it, we'll stick with the old stuff.

[ChaosDrgn]

White Wolf retired the original World of Darkness, the only books they may publish for it is the Dark Ages Line. All the moderen books ended.

They will be releasing a "World of Darkness 2.0" this August (sorry but how can you re-release something that hasn't come out?).

WW is supposedly streamlining the system so one system will work with all their games (sound familiar?). World of Darkness will be the corebook, with Vampire: Requiem will be an add on book just for Vampires. Werewolf:Forsaken will come out early next year (it's been rescheduled). White Wolf has been releasing bits and pieces of game information for the last month or so on their WoD website.

Now about them being greedy and coming out withtoo many books. Doesn't really affect me if they do or don't, I only buy the ones I'm intreasted in. I do think they micromanaged they're world until only the way they did it existed though. It was a wonderful game when it came, not much was detailed in the books, so the StoryTeller could come up with whatever he wanted. Around 2nd (or Revised) they came out with so much on every little thing it seemed that it "took away" what the ST could do.

[Lord Mhoram]

Never been a fan of WW. I have the Aberrant stuff because I collect superhero stuff, but I never bought a WoD book.

However I thought it interesting, and actually sort of cool, that a company that used metaplot so heavily in thier world, they actually go ahead and end the plot, end the world and end the lines when they go into a revised ruleset. I appreciate the respect for thier story that they are actually finishing the plots of the world, instead of leaving them dangling.

As I understand it, the WoD 2.0 will not have metaplot. So it is something of radical depature for their strategy, but after Exalted, and the S&S imprint, they have other cash cows.

[Dust Raven]

I don't see how it's any different what what happened with the Hero System back with 3rd to 4th editions. (I think that's when it happened...)

They've had all this stuff out, it's gotten large, inflated and confusing. And its old. The stories they've had published are over. The books aren't selling because everybody who wants to play the game already has what they need and want. So, REDO!

It's not like they're just reprinting the books in spiffier covers and lacing the old text with new artwork just to draw in a crowd. They're actualy re-tooling their system. Granted, I don't know if I'll even like what they end up with, but I like the fact they're doing it. I've been wanted something like this from WW ever since I had my hands on more than one Core book (Mage + Vampire) and realized the rules are the same, exacept for the specifically Mage or Vampire (or whatever) stuff.

[Monument]

Here's my take:

Being an avid WW fan I was appauled. The big reason(s) being 1) they lied 2) the ending sourcebooks were insulting in some degree and in others a thing of beauty.

On the lying: WW had produced a statement that stated the WoD was coming to an end. That no more WoD books were coming out. They did not expand on this, only tried to retort against the myriad of flames their message boards drew from the intial response.

I was bummed but not "put out".

Then they begin leaking what the 'new' game was going to be:

World of Darkness v 2.0.

So what happened to ending the game? Vampire/WoD has always been their meat and potatoes as a company. Even though they've finally found some niches elsewhere, that game has been the staple. So why bother to state that you are remaking the WoD? Because that bit of information didn't come out til the End of the World line of books was already under way.

That is a lie. And at face value makes it look like they did so deliberately to help sell the $40 books they just put out. Don't tell them the line is going to restart when the end suppliments are about to/just now coming out. That could kill sales.

On the topic of the books themselves: The Vampire book was largely trash unfit to wipe my butt with. I like to use a movie or wrestling analogy when describing the Vampire book. Mostly because it fits soo well.

Ex: Indiana Jones is a well liked character and a well recieved genre as a whole. His movies have done well and people enjoy themselves. They produce a final, be all end all Indiana Jones film. It's against his hated enemies, the Nazis. They do a recap for about 3 minutes of the movie to help inform or re-iterate why Indy feels the way he does and displays them in all their villany.

2 minutes into the movie Indy is shot through the head, dies and the story goes on with a few brand new people to the story (some actually die) and a couple of the secondary characters.

As a fan, your big pay off was to watch the character you grew to love, the movie series you enjoyed, flushed down the toliet in a blink of an eye and carried on by someone else without much reason why.

This is how the Vampire book came across. Some of the Vampire clans were just summed up in a paragraph or two as to their fate and thats that. While 2-3 take center stage for the whole story like the movie had always been about them and them alone. And this "movie" cost you more than most of the movies in your collection. In a book the size of a main rule book, to have what you liked (or several things you liked) summed up without even a page of text is shamefully wrong.

Especially when you compare it to the excellence of the Werewolf book.

Back to the movie analogy:

Same movie title, only this time Indy takes center stage. Time is given to the background characters and you understand why they do what they do. Even the Nazi villian of the story! you know indy can't keep doing this for the rest of his life and so the movie was going to send him off with a bang.

Your big payoff is you get to choose. Even the secondary characters get to play a role in those choices. And to top it off, you get a meaty DVD included that gives you material to watch and see what it would be like to see Indy fall to the evil seduction of the Nazis! Or perhaps his father? Maybe the museum caretaker or their Turkish ally?

Honestly, would you not be insulted if one book, the book that started them off on the road they are on now, was cheesed out so? And they devoted such effort to logically wrapping up plotlines and just handing you the keys of the kingdom with another? The glaring differences in the styles of the books were so different that I just ended up being insulted. And left me questioning why the Vampire book couldn't have been as good as the Vampire book. It just wasn't even in the same league, and that was truly sad.

[Plucky]

However I thought it interesting, and actually sort of cool, that a company that used metaplot so heavily in thier world, they actually go ahead and end the plot, end the world and end the lines when they go into a revised ruleset. I appreciate the respect for thier story that they are actually finishing the plots of the world, instead of leaving them dangling.

It's funny, because they were heavy-handed with metaplots - until they reached the final books where they basically gave a bunch a scenarios and no answers for the big questions. The rationale being that the WoD is the world of the gaming groups and it would not be right for the publisher to, potentially, provide answers that ran counter to events in individual gaming groups.

So, with all the supplements they published where they gave hints, setup sub-plot, and DICTATES what happened to the 'official' game world to generate interest, they basically left everyone hanging at the end. People who didn't follow the metaplot wouldn't have purchased all the supplements while people who did follow the metaplot was left with a bad taste in their mouths.

Plucky

[Magmarock]

Here is the problem: When WW created the Gehenna concept it was cool. But they had already shot themselves in the foot only they hadn't realized it until- lo and behold- the Gehenna years passed us by in Real Life.

Most WW gamers prefer to game in the present. In our group, we usually play in the recent past (1980's thru 1990's) but then our campaigns never quite last long enough for our vamps to experience the End Days. It's like the year 200o scare, once the millenium passed, people said, "So what?"

That's what's happening with the WW major plot arc. People are saying, "So what?"

So they need to do a reboot, so to speak. I think that's fair enough. I mean, a company has to make money or it'll fold. People who don't like it, well, they don't have to buy it. There's a good bet that many people will buy the new books. If I was working, I would.

Mags

[Lord Mhoram]

It's funny, because they were heavy-handed with metaplots - until they reached the final books where they basically gave a bunch a scenarios and no answers for the big questions.
..snip...
So, with all the supplements they published where they gave hints, setup sub-plot, and DICTATES what happened to the 'official' game world to generate interest, they basically left everyone hanging at the end.
Plucky

Well that is just pathetic then. As I said I never read or bought a WoD book, what I was getting was secondhand. I like the concept of a metaplot driven line actually having an ending. If they screwed that up... well nevermind.

[KawangaKid]

Er? I thought that White Wolf gave several scenarios in each of the Time of Judgement books as OPTIONS on how you tied up each of your own takes on the metaplot. I thought most major questions were answered, and some weren't...

I think they're stepping away from the whole heavy-handed metaplot which their research showed was hindering more than helping sales.

[Plucky]

Er? I thought that White Wolf gave several scenarios in each of the Time of Judgement books as OPTIONS on how you tied up each of your own takes on the metaplot. I thought most major questions were answered, and some weren't...

I think they're stepping away from the whole heavy-handed metaplot which their research showed was hindering more than helping sales.

That's my point though. I can understand them wanting to start over with a new setting that's not metaplot driven (WoD 2.0). However, since they had been heavy-handed with the old world for the last decade, the least they can do is to actually explain what happens at the end.

The books did seem to get better as the end came along (there were 4 books). However, a lot of subplot were dropped and many of the most interesting storylines were not directly addressed. It's like reading a long series of novels and finding out that you are missing the last chapter.

[Monument]

That's my point though. I can understand them wanting to start over with a new setting that's not metaplot driven (WoD 2.0). However, since they had been heavy-handed with the old world for the last decade, the least they can do is to actually explain what happens at the end.

The books did seem to get better as the end came along (there were 4 books). However, a lot of subplot were dropped and many of the most interesting storylines were not directly addressed. It's like reading a long series of novels and finding out that you are missing the last chapter.

I don't think anyone faulted them for wanting to improve the line. The two biggest things I read and heard that got people miffed, I already outlined.

And while it is true that they developed alternate ending plots, if the ending plots ignore most of the driving meta plot, what good are they? WW was already big about not answering the questions they set up in the books, so I wasn't surprised when they didn't address them in the books. Kinda like when you expect someone to do something you don't like, and they do. You might get bummed or upset, but you expected no better of them.

[bblackmoor]

"Too greedy"? You do realize that it's a business, right? And that no one is forced to spend a penny unless they like what White Wolf is selling?

Game publishers make money by publishing games we want to buy. I say let them give that their best shot. If White Wolf wants to redo their games and try to make them better, I say good for them: I hope they succeed. Success would mean better games for us and more money for them. Everyone wins.

[rjcurrie]

I seem to remember hearing about the plans for WoD 2.0 around the same time that it was announced that WoD was ending, which, if I remember correctly, was last GenCon. And I'll point out that I'm not even a White Wolf fan, so I wasn't exactly digging around for info on it.

I suspect part of the reason for the new start is that over the years, it would seem that WW has undergone a lot of changes in their creative staff, so it's not surprising that the people who are running the show these days would want to put their own mark on things. This may have accounted for the lack of tying up some of the loose ends. If the newer people didn't have the same attachment to those metaplot points, then they may have seen them as unimportant. Heck, for all we know, more of the plots may have been scheduled to be tied up in the books, but, for whatever reason, the writer didn't include them, and time may have been too tight for the editor or developer to properly insert them (which would likely require removing text since books are often written to a specific size).