The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

[Curufea]

The association and empathy is stronger with Thomas because of his modern background. Therefore the reader does not distance themselves so much from his moral choices.
Readers don't care if a character they don't understand or care about does something immoral.

It's also the main reason to instill personality into NPCs in roleplaying games. If the players' don't care, they won't be immersed.

[CraterMaker]

I think the antipathy many readers feel towards Thomas is also because we are very sympathetic to him in the beginning - (Oooh, poor leper) - and then later he betrays our sympathy by his actions.. all in all, an excellent example to follow if you want to recreate such emotions in your stories. IMO.

-CraterMaker

[Curufea]

True.

It's always a nice shock to show that characters we pity can also be quite despicable.

[Melenkurion]

I just wanted to ask one thing--and then I will not go away, ha--does anyone here think that Berek Halfhand and Kevin Landwaster saw the coming of Thomas Covenant? How would Berek know about "white gold" it doesn't exist in The Land? Why did Kevin Landwaster do The Ritual of Desecration?
Covenant in "White Gold Wielder" was called Earthfriend by The First of The Search, a giant. Berek was known as Earthfriend. Kevin wasn't.
I am just curious about this. Donaldson thought his story through thoroughly.
Did they get a vision from The Creator about Covenant? Berek saw hope and Kevin saw despair...? Covenant threw that tapestry of Berek out the window when he was first at Revelstone. Covenant, also, doesn't care too much for Kevin Landwaster. That is why in Lord Foul's Bane he was always trying to get a reaction from Bannor. He wanted Bannor to admit to something, weakness? Zealotry? He was appalled at the Bloodguards simplicity. Covenant, knew that Kevin did what he did because he gave up, the fidelity of the hurachhai, earthpower...what I am asking is did he see the arrival of someone not from the Land, who would resemble Berek, and wield white gold?

[teh bunneh]

Good questions, Mel, and a nice analysis of the books. It's been years and years (and years) since I read them so I can't remember most of the details. But one thing that I always thought as I read the second trilogy is that the Land, and the people who inhabit it, are a reflection of the main characters (not Thomas, but Linden). The Haruchai are a reflection of her professional detachment -- their dispassionate reaction to almost everything is almost exactly like her dispassionate reaction to disease and injury. When danger looms, the Haruchai get to the ass-whuppin without a trace of emotion, and when someone is hurt, Linden refuses to let a person's pain effect her emotions, she just lets her machine-like doctor personality take over. It's been so long, but I recall that there was something about the Giants, Findail, and Vain that seemed to be echoes of aspects of her personality, too.

You've got a good point about Lord Foul being a reflection of or metaphor for Thomas' disease. It fits. I grant you a portion of my Earthpower! (AKA rep!)

[Curufea]

There are a couple of ways it could go-
a) It is a fictional land created or influenced by Thomas Covenant and would not exist if he did not.
b) Prophecies. I think it was mentioned in the series. If you can predict the future, you can see alloys that never existed previously

[CraterMaker]

I have to admit it's been - good lord! Well over a decade since I've read the series.. I'll have to hand this off to you guys and see what you come up with. And stop by the used book store and see if they've got the books...

-CraterMaker

[Dale A. Ward]

I dont care if an old thread is ressurected for a good purpose, Ive just been noticing a trend where a new account is made and an old thread is ressurrected, and nothing more is ever heard from that person again. It makes me wonder "why?".

No offense intended, KS... but, maybe, the reason they're never heard from again is because, within the first half-dozen responses, there's always someone complaining about why they resurrected the thread.

Perhaps, if they were greeted with a more positive, welcoming attitude, there would be fewer disappearances. And, the ranks of HEROphiles would grow.

Also, for the record, the first time I read the Covenant books, I have to admit that I was unimpressed. I'm not much for anti-heroes. However, after reading Melenkurion's views, I am giving serious thought to a long-overdue re-read.

[Susano]

I used to own all six books, and reread them a few years back, got done, and stuck them in my "to get rid of" pile. Melenkurion makes some interesting points, but I'm not about to re-buy or re-find them just to see how it all comes out a third time around. However, I do admit to having an interest in developing HERO sheets for the Giants, the Bloodguard, the Sand Gorgons, and some of the other beings/creatures.

[teh bunneh]

For people's info (in case you don't already know), Donaldson is writing the Last Chronicals of Thomas Covenent right now. I've read the first book (Runes of the Earth) and it's actually pretty good. Linden (from the second series) is back. She's a much stronger character than Thomas, IMHO -- though also flawed.

No spoilers, but the book ends on a cliffhanger, so you might wait at least until the second book is out before picking this one up.

[Susano]

For people's info (in case you don't already know), Donaldson is writing the Last Chronicals of Thomas Covenent right now. I've read the first book (Runes of the Earth) and it's actually pretty good. Linden (from the second series) is back. She's a much stronger character than Thomas, IMHO -- though also flawed.

No spoilers, but the book ends on a cliffhanger, so you might wait at least until the second book is out before picking this one up.

Is Thomas still around? Didn't he... uhm... "die" at the end of Book 6? And is Linden the doctor from Earth?

[teh bunneh]

Is Thomas still around? Didn't he... uhm... "die" at the end of Book 6? And is Linden the doctor from Earth?

Yep, Thomas is dead. Linden is the doctor from Earth -- the story is about her.

[Susano]

Yep, Thomas is dead. Linden is the doctor from Earth -- the story is about her.

Ahhh... okay.

I'll admit right now... I'm almost certainly not going to read it.

[Susano]

When was the last time someone argued about the morality of Conan....

REH presents Conan's time as one of pretty black-and-white morality. The bad guys are pretty easy to spot, they sacrifice maidens, traffic with demons, and cast dark spells. Conan, while he might be a thief, pirate, and raider, doesn't go around randomly killing people (for the most part), and tends to enact a rough sort of justice in his world. He also has a certain moral code and standards -- won't hurt woman, stands by his friends, and so on. He's not an upstanding human being, unlike, say, Captain America, but he's heroic by the standards of his world.

Covenant rapes a woman almost as soon as he arrives in the Land, denies everything, and tends to come across as a whiner and complainer. He tends to be inactive and let everyone else fight/act for him. And then tries (too late) top stop something bad from happening. So it's hard to see him as the hero until book 3. Interestingly, in books 4-6, he's far more "heroic", while Linden is the one who won't accept the world.

[CraterMaker]

Er.. Yeah, I'm familiar with Conan..

Perhaps the example was flawed, but the gist of the post was that the series evokes a strong emotional response which people talk about. My take on it is that the author originally gave us a sympathetic character for the readers, and once we bought in to it his actions made us hate him.. Usually it is the reverse that happens in stories, where the characters initial actions scream "Villian" and then subsequently he "atones" and we sympathise with him (Like Darth Vader- Villain who performs act of heroics and becomes sympathetic) - OR - the character's morality is established and he doesn't change throughout the entire story.

Course, I'm not a lit critic and haven't even taken any college courses on how to evaluate things like this, but it's my take on it.

The reason I brought it up is that, even though the Covenant series is an excellent extreme example of the technique, the same thing could be used in a story or game to evoke the same emotions - tailored to how much antipathy you think your players would accept, of course.

-CraterMaker