The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the HEROic Unbeliever

[keithcurtis]

I always cut him some slack for the rape.* He honestly thought he was hallucinating. He might have been in some way. We are Sci Fi fantasy readers, ready to accept (at least on a theoretical level) the fantastic. Covenant had no such background. He could not accept that he was doing anything other than dreaming. He certainly was not rational.
Has none of you never committed an act in a dream you would never, ever think of doing in a waking, rational state?

Keith "He whipped himself for it enough for the following chapters and books" Curtis


*That's a hard sentence to type, but I couldn't think of a better way to word it. Keith in no way endorses rape. There.

[Susano]

I always cut him some slack for the rape. He honestly thought he was hallucinating. He might have been in some way. We are Sci Fi fantasy readers, ready to accept (at least on a theoretical level) the fantastic. Covenant had no such background. He could not accept that he was doing anything other than dreaming. He certainly was not rational.
Has none of you never committed an act in a dream you would never, ever think of doing in a waking, rational state?

I did too. He clearly thinks he's in a dream and is not able to deal with his normally dead limbs having a sense of feeling again. It drives him more than a little mad initially.

[Kristopher]

I always cut him some slack for the rape.* He honestly thought he was hallucinating. He might have been in some way. We are Sci Fi fantasy readers, ready to accept (at least on a theoretical level) the fantastic. Covenant had no such background. He could not accept that he was doing anything other than dreaming. He certainly was not rational.
Has none of you never committed an act in a dream you would never, ever think of doing in a waking, rational state?

I don't recall having done so, but I don't get to dream much. REM wakes me up most of the time.

*That's a hard sentence to type, but I couldn't think of a better way to word it. Keith in no way endorses rape. There.

At least for me, you didn't need to add that.

[keithcurtis]

At least for me, you didn't need to add that.

And probably not for 90% of the board. But a bulletproof vest that is guaranteed to only stop 90% of the bullets flying at you...

Keith "CYA" Curtis

[Mulgar]

Two quick thoughts......

First of all the world of Thomas Covenat was unbelievable, to this day it is one of the best imagined that I have ever read about. BUT I could never get into the whiny anti-hero of the series. I was really confused at the time because a lot of my friends were telling me how great it was and I just labored to read them.

Second, I for one am glad that occasionally some of the old threads are brought up. I don't have the time to read the entire boards and find them. I can read the new ones as they come. So Mel, thanks for pulling it up again. There has been some good new discussions about it.

If I had rep to give several of you would get it.

[CraterMaker]

Mulgar makes a good point about bringing up older threads.. I don't have time to go swimming in the vast goodness that is in the vault, so it makes me appreciative of people who

A) Have Massive Thread-Fu, like Lord Liaden (and others)
B) Expend the time to find things they have something to contribute to..

-CraterMaker

[Curufea]

Just chiming in with my "why wikis are superior to message boards" proseletyzing again

Because old content is still easily findable.

QED

[Melenkurion]

I agree cutting Covenant a break on the rape, because of the impossibility of his situation. Thing is, Covenant didn't do that; he always tried to justify it but he still never really forgave himself for that.
But I have a question. Berek spoke of "white gold", something that doesn't exist in The Land. How would he know about white gold? Unless he was given a vision of some sort. What I am getting at is did Berek and later Kevin Landwaster, see the advent of Thomas Covenant in The Land? That poem about white gold, and also the one who bears it "hero and fool, potent and powerless" is that what led Kevin to The Ritual of Desecration? He saw the terribleness of Ringthane, White Gold Wielder? Berek did too, but maybe he hoped. I understand that Kevin brought on the ritual hoping it would end Lord Foul. Berek in his extremity brought forth the Fire Lions, just like Covenant did, although in his situation he had no idea of what was going on. I love that in the book "White Gold Wielder" that Covenant was named Earthfriend, just like Berek. But in the end as Mhoram said to TC, "You are the white gold". He is the paradox. Which I thought was brilliant, because Covenant in Our World is a leper, Foul in The Land is a leper to, despised. I think Foul counted on that, that Covenant would cling to his leperhood, his despite. BUt Thomas Covenant was no quitter. Like Berek, no matter what, he was going to survive. WEll, I ramble.

[Lord Mhoram]

No spoilers, but the book ends on a cliffhanger, so you might wait at least until the second book is out before picking this one up.

Yeah, which doesn't come out until Oct 2007. Arrgh. Two years between books. Arrgh.

I was very surprised with the opening of Runes of Earth - It was cool to see a series open with a strong character making decisions right away, even if they could be wrong ones.

As my username implies, I am a huge fan of the books... They are my favorite fantasy books of all time, and S R Dondalson my favorite writer. Without going into specific analysis of the Covenant books (I always could later, a subject near and dear to my heart) - I'm going to comment on his approach. If you want to tell something close to the hero journey, and have growth of character, the tradition is the innocent growing to adulthood (Young King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, Frodo Baggins, Garion,ect...) - Donaldson chooses to have his characters grow in a different way - they start off broken and the growth is healing themselves. I find the approach to be somewhat refreshing in that you have great amounts of character growth, but not the cliche of Farmboy grows up to save the world.

Spoiler:

show spoiler

Covenants rape and guilt, plus his unbelief and leprosy, and later his inability to controll his wild magic.
Linden's guilt for her parents.
Teresa (From Mordant's Need) and her complete and total lack of anything resembling self image or belief in self.
Geraden's lack of self confidence.
Axebrewder's alcoholism
Angus' many many problems
Morn's Gap sickness and addition to the zone implants

[Lord Mhoram]

But I have a question. Berek spoke of "white gold", something that doesn't exist in The Land. How would he know about white gold? Unless he was given a vision of some sort.

Seers and Prophets are mentioned in the series - my namesake being one.

Some spoilers from Runes of Earth here
Spoiler:

show spoiler

Well there is time travel in the storms that move in the land in the last series. I fully expect to see coversations with Berek, Kevin and others from great past.

[Melenkurion]

Yes, I know about Mhoram the oracle. I don't think I am right in what I posted, just curious. With the exception Foamfollower, Mhoram was the most tolerant towards Covenant. Why? He insulted Mhoram's grief over the death of his parents. But, only Mhoram, maybe Foamfollwer and maybe Bannor, believed that Covenant was the key--not to victory, but to not give into despair. I always got the impression that Mhoram was a lot more than he made himself out to be, especially since he grappled with a Raver and the Raver feared him.
I just keep thinking about Kevin Landwaster as I read the books and what was it that drove him to despair? Remember Elena's bone scultpture of Covenant, and Covenant thought it was Bannor? TC thought the Bloodguards' oath was extravegant. And, boy, did Covenant not know The Bloodguard and The Bloodguard know him? No Bloodguard was rejected by The Ranyhyn, some Lords were, Covenant got an army of Ranyhyn who reared to him and were terrified of him. I find that sad. The Bloodguard respect Earthpower, The Ranyhyn are the expression of Earthpower and Health Sense.
Ok, here is what I am getting at. (starting to sound like Covenant!) When Covenant becomes a leper, what was going on in The Land? Or more importantly when Covenant married and put on the white gold ring that was at least five years before the leprosy. I'm not sure if Donaldson went that far with Covenant. Still you got to wonder.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yes, I know about Mhoram the oracle. I don't think I am right in what I posted, just curious. With the exception Foamfollower, Mhoram was the most tolerant towards Covenant. Why?

I think Mhoram understood covenant. Perhaps not the details, but he understood his pain, his suffering and his sorrows. He intuited that Thomas couldn't express himself in ways that the people of the land could understand. He was, after all, the man who eventually understood the ritual of descration and the failure of the lords. He could see something in Covenant that allowed him to understand him. Everyone else saw Covenant as a savior, Mhoram saw his as man in pain (as did Foamfollower).

That was always my take on that.

As for how did Berek know, I'm not sure, but I could easily see him as a Seer and Prophet and saw his coming to the land. And as the new series is called the Last Chornicles of Thomas Covenant - and years ago in an interview he said that if he ever did another TC series "I'd destroy the land, the whole thing would be a metaphor for death and acceptence" - I could see that coming about at the hands of TC, with the only way to save the intent of the land is to destroy it - which would really fufil the paradox "Savior and destroyer" all in one.

[Melenkurion]

Then the Ranyhyn would be right in fearing him. Covenant is worse than Kevin , just like Foul. I don't understand someone who creates this beautiful place and the only thing he can come up with is to destroy it? That says more about Donaldson than it does about The Land. I figured Foul was killing The Land by degrees. So Covenant who sacrificied everything to save The Land ends up destroying it? Why bother with Covenant then? Even our world is not that tragic. Unless Donaldson means a re-birth of The Land. The "intent of The Land"? Is what? I really don't see how having Covenant die to uphold The Arch of Time works out to his destruction of The Land. Where is Foul in this? Foul is an idiot. He is a one-dimensional thinker; like Dracula, he always returns to what worked before. So Foul, then, was lying when he was defeated. Covenant was defeated, not Foul. Foul never said, "YOu dare not! No, no no!" Oh that was Covenant's fantasy. If Donaldson thinks that is the way to go, put it on Covenant, then The Land was never real. And I have no interest in reading further. Donaldson says "acceptence"? Then he should have made sure that Covenant raped Foul too. Why not? In the end, there is just the end. Brilliant. This just is unacceptable. Foul will not be defeated or freed by the destruction of The Land. What is the point? Foul is trapped? He was trapped way before Covenant came along.
Sorry, I love SRD's books. It probably is just the same thing again, Donaldson writes something that makes me writhe and then later I get over it because I understand. It serves no purpose to destroy The Land. Foul wouldn't bother destroying the Land if that was it! He might just because but that doesn't win him anything, he is still trapped. Ok, enough.

[Zed-F]

I never could get all the way through the Thomas Covenant stuff.

But his Gap Cyle was a lot better work, IMHO.

[Alcamtar]

First of all the world of Thomas Covenat was unbelievable, to this day it is one of the best imagined that I have ever read about.

Really? I read it back when I was a kid and my recollection was that the world was kind of sketchy and shallow, that Donaldson was a good storyteller but an amateurish worldbuilder. Then again maybe it is my memory that is sketchy and shallow.

Not trying to offend anyone, but a couple of people have mentioned this now and it surprises me. What about The Land did you find to be well done? What made it better than say, Middle Earth or Hyboria or even Greyhawk (to name just a few)? All of these always felt more real and/or cool to me. Maybe it was Donaldson's allegorical names that I couldn't get past.

Genuinely curious,
Mike