Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

[arcady]

I've been letting my Hero collection gather dust for the past few years.

Last Monday I bought fantasy Hero - 5 days now - in order to take the genre and setting building ideas.

But in the process the Hero bug has begun to bite again, as I realize most of the things that I did not like in Champions are not major issues in Fantasy Hero and other genres.

Now I still own the previous two editions of Fantasy Hero, which I bought the day they came out in both cases.

The problem, is that while I have two Hero fans among my players, I also have one ex-Hero player who rejects its conventions even more than I have, and two 'if it ain't DnD or d20, why should I bother?' players.

Players who've seen the size of the core Hero book, heard how slow champions plays out, and seen the complexity of building powers or spells to do what sounds so simple - like page 145's draining cuffs or page 175's potion of giant strength or even the long pike on page 141.

Face it, Hero is intimidating. The book is so big that the first reaction non Hero players have when they see it on my library shelf is usually some expletive, followed by some comment about having to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table to touch it.

With the three examples above, they all read easy to those of us who know Hero system well, but to an outsider they scream 'overcomplex'.


So I face an uphill battle.


I know Hero can do an amazing job with fantasy, and I want to show them this. But I do not want to come across strong. If I 'rub it in their faces' I will only turn them off more. I've met many players since moving away from the Hero circle who told me tales like 'I thought about trying it, but then I met some of the people who play it'. Not that Hero players are bad people - but they have a rep for coming across as fanatics.

My players have all heard my stories of running a 12 hour real time combat (5pcs v 5npcs all at 250 Champions 3rded pts), or of an average Champions combat taking 3 to 4 hours. The two people in my group who are still amicable to Hero are players from my last Champions game - they were there and like me know it was not inexperience as like me they all started with Hero in the early to mid 80s. My ex-Hero player has her own similar stories from a seperate gaming community.

Into that, I have to convince them that trying Fantasy Hero would not bog us down at the same level, that it might even play as fast as DnD.

I have to find the features that might show it off as a better choice than DnD. I have to find a way to get them to 'learn a new RPG'.


My present strategy is to get in a one shot game. I've managed to get that on the table, so I will have a 5 hour window in which to get up that hill.

I've also started pushing, as of today, "Sidekick" - hoping I can get one of them to buy it before the damaged 50% off copies run out.

In that short time slot, and in the discussion I have with them between now and then, I have to find ways to get the Hero bug to bite enough of them to away group opinion over.

Trying to counter the negative assumptions listed above won't work, as they all come from the personal experience of members of this group (whether or not other people on this board have faced them). At best, I will be able to claim they are issues Champions has but other genres lack - such a claim will then require me 'proving it', which I'll have to do in a hostile platform where at least one person will probably be subconsciously working to see it fail, and several will come in jaded before the first die roll hits the table.

Thoughts?

[Lord Kilsco]

You will find some thoughts about this subject in this thread :
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19352

[Killer Shrike]

Honestly? I wouldnt bother trying to entice them. If they dont want to play HERO then it will just make for an unhappy game.

My advice would be to either play the game your friends like, or find a group that wants to play the HERO System and play FH with them.

Transitioning to the HERO System will only work if the players "buy in" to it.

[Lord Liaden]

Okay, I'll try to give some specific suggestions:

To the people who think HERO players are fanatics, you could try telling them: "I play HERO - these two from our group play HERO... are we fanatics?" Assuming the naysayers know you (and you really aren't fanatics), that argument should be telling.

For the D&Ders who want to know "why bother": ask them what kind of character they've always wanted to play that they couldn't in that system? What combination of abilities they wanted it to have, what kind of flashy combat maneuvers they've always wanted to play out, that the system just wouldn't support? Then show them how easily they can do it in HERO.

As a counter to concerns about the pace of combat, try showing them this sample combat for fantasy. Just scroll down a few posts.

If they're concerned about complex builds... well, while I hesitate to suggest buying yet more books, you might consider the Fantasy HERO Grimoire. That has tons of premade spells described in plain English in terms of how they look and what they do, as well as game mechanics. Your players can pick what they want without having to think about construction. Factor in the package deal templates from FH for "classes" and "races", plus the new Talents (aka "feats") and your D&D players should feel right at home.

Alternatively, you might use Killer Shrike's excellent High Fantasy HERO website. Here you'll find many of the familiar concepts from D&D translated to HERO terms, and tons of ready-to-use material.

I hope that helps. Good luck.

[nexus]

The cynical, bitter part of me says "Don't bother". But the best advice I can offer is do most of the "work" yourself. Make package deals (classes), make the spells and write down the bare minimum of details yourself, etc. Let them get into the game and forget about the mechanics if you can. Run it as if there were levels, then slowly introduce the idea of customizing their characters. I've seen that work wonders.

[Killer Shrike]

The cynical, bitter part of me says "Don't bother". But the best advice I can offer is do most of the "work" yourself. Make package deals (classes), make the spells and write down the bare minimum of details yourself, etc. Let them get into the game and forget about the mechanics if you can. Run it as if there were levels, then slowly introduce the idea of customizing their characters. I've seen that work wonders.

Yeah, my web site contains a ton of material for exactly that purpose (www.killershrike.com), and Ive brought a lot of players into the HERO System over the years, particularly via Fantasy.

However, converting an existing group containing people hostile/adverse to the system will almost certainly see the group fracture.


I would strongly recommend starting your game seperately and recruiting ppl that are interested in it instead. Some of your current group might come along for the ride as well.

Trying to "sell" to a group that is strongly weighted against it wont work, and will end badly IMO.

[Lord Kilsco]

As I said in the thread I already told about here, you must talk with the players. They explain what they want, and you design the technical solution with them.

[Agent X]

Prepackaged Spells ought to do the trick and, if you are worried about long combats, get rid of the speed chart. Everyone gets an action each phase. Recoveries happen after every 4 phases. If someone wants to swing more often make them use rapid fire and sweeps or autofire if they're not intimidated by advantages.

Oh, and make pretty character sheets that hide the number crunching on the "traditional" character sheets.

[arcady]

As a counter to concerns about the pace of combat, try showing them this sample combat for fantasy. Just scroll down a few posts.

I looked at that, and I noticed it starts out on phase 12, but never says why, and in the first action it says 'wants to hit a hex' but never says what that is.

In other words, it uses Hero jargon, and I would have to preface any email I sent them telling them to look with a lot of definitions.


I'm pondering collecting their DnD characters (they leveled last Wednesday anyway, so I have an excuse), converting them, and then running the regular DnD game for a session using Hero.

That, or I take in ideas, make a cast of characters, and run perhaps one of the scenerios out of Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds - perhaps the Inn.

The third option is that I sit them down for character creation. This shows the real power of Hero, but the complexity without any dead orcs also risks scarring them off.

I'd prefer bringing this group over to Hero above recruiting, as they're a good batch of players I've had for a while now - they're mostly the players in my Mutants and Masterminds game with the exception of two. I've got them for two games I run, and one I play in run by one of the DnD 'why bother' people [who's experience with Hero is limited to horror stories told as gamer humor by the Hero players in the group... Oops -yeah, I am now going to be working to counter my own medicine].


I think my other two Hero players could go either way - I could get them behind me with not too much trouble. My other ex-Hero player is the most adamant against it, and will take more work than the DnD people. She's said she never wants to deal with -that system- again, and when I said Fantasy plays out different, asks if it 'still suffered from too many VPPs' which made me wonder who she played it with before - previous editions of Fantasy Hero from what I recall avoided the VPP.

[Doc Democracy]

Oh, and make pretty character sheets that hide the number crunching on the "traditional" character sheets.

I think that presentation could be key. I've done JI for D20 adicts with great success. I made up the sheets to look as D20 as I could and presented the system mechanic as needing to roll a modified 11 or better on 3D6.

Modifications arise from player characteristics and skills, positive when they are acting negatively when defending.

I have attached a file that should hopefully give an example of one of the characters from the game (I did it in Powerpoint originally and have had to save it as a gif to post it here).


Doc

[tesuji]

[/QUOTE]

I'm pondering collecting their DnD characters (they leveled last Wednesday anyway, so I have an excuse), converting them, and then running the regular DnD game for a session using Hero.

I think this is a BAD idea. The reasons are:

1. everyone will come in with expectations about what they can and cannot do with their already well known characters. HERo and DND wont translate those abilities the same way in every case, so everyone will be working against a new system, trying to relearn how to say the same thing in a different game's language and even then not getting to do what they already "know" they can do.

2. HERO's strength is not that it can emulate DND, but the other things. It actually doesn't emulate DND all that well. Don't run a game where you are focusing on reinventing DND but go for something else. use something that highlights the strength of the versatility.

Think of it this way, if everything goes right, you will have convinced them HERO can do DND. That is not going to necessarily equate to urging them to move to HERo.

What you need to do to have a chance of convincing them that HERo is worth the effort is to show them what HERo does that they WANT that DND does not offer them.

So, let me ask you something.

Why do you want to move the game to HERO from DND?
What are the top ten things you wanted to do in your DND GMing that you cannot do there that you can do in HERO?
What would be the features you would want to highlight as "this will be more fun for you" in HERo than in DND?

If the answer is just something like "i got hero books and want to use them!" or "I just like hero more!" then you are simply selling the system, so grab the guys who are fine with the system and go for it.

But if there are solid things using HERO will let you do that playing in D20 wont, that you can see and can show will be fun, then you have something to hook the guys for whom having HERO stamped on their character sheet makes no never mind.

So, why do you want to switch to HERo?
What does it offer that you are missing?
What can you do (and do for your players
the answers should be the focus of your sell.) in HERO that you cannot get to work in DnD or D20?

[BlackSword]

I glanced through the thread and didn't see a mention of Sidekick. If they are intimidated by the big black book, Sidekick is a much condensed version and gets rid of some of the more complex options. Its $10 for the book, and it might be an easier and less intimidating way to introduce people. It has had great success in teach new players the system, and it sounds like for many of the gamers in the group it might be the only book they need. What other system can they buy into for $10?

[Enforcer84]

Personally I find that bright lights and food/water deprivation work wonders. Sometimes I play good GM bad GM too...

[Greatwyrm]

Let me start by saying I'm a big D&D/d20 fan, but I'm well aware of it's limitations.

Ask them if they've ever wanted to play a balanced and playable fighter/mage.

Ask them if they've ever wanted to make their own spells and be pretty darn sure of the power level without much guesswork.

Ask them if they want their characters to be powerful because of their abilities or their accumulated treasure.

Then hand them a copy of Sidekick and walk away for a few minutes.

[Chris Goodwin]

I say start a game for your two Hero fans. Have it run on days you're not normally playing with the whole group. Then you and your two players can talk up how cool the game is when you're waiting for the other game to start.