Buying a "Weapon Element"

[Supreme]

Does buying a weapon familiarity constitute buying a "weapon element" for martial arts maneuvers?

[Agent Escafarc]

Looking at examples in NH it looks like the reverse is true that a WE is like buying an WF.

[misterdeath]

AFAIK, not usually. The two are/should be separate.

If you pay points for something, you can use it without weapon element or weapon familiarity.

If you want to know how to use a weapon, that you didn't pay points for, you have to have weapon familiarity (or take the -3 OCV penalty). If you want to use the weapon with your martial arts, you need to have the weapons element.

I suppose you could buy the WE without having the WF. You'd be able to use the maneuver to offset the -3 OCV penalty.

Weapon Elements are much more restrictive than Weapon Familiarities. You can buy Common Melee Weapons for two points, and know how to use everything, but getting Clubs, Blades, and Axes Weapon Elements costs three points, because you don't get groupings.

So, if you have a character with WF: Common Melee, and WE: Blades with his martial arts, and he disarms the Black Knight, he can pick up BKs sword and use it.

But, if you have your own sword, and no WF or WE, you can use your martial arts, because you get your points. If you disarm the BK, you don't get the full benefit of using his sword, because you don't have the skill. Too specialized I guess. "I'm really good with my sword, and no other."

D

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by misterdeath
AFAIK, not usually. The two are/should be separate.

If you pay points for something, you can use it without weapon element or weapon familiarity.

If you want to know how to use a weapon, that you didn't pay points for, you have to have weapon familiarity (or take the -3 OCV penalty). If you want to use the weapon with your martial arts, you need to have the weapons element.

I suppose you could buy the WE without having the WF. You'd be able to use the maneuver to offset the -3 OCV penalty.

Weapon Elements are much more restrictive than Weapon Familiarities. You can buy Common Melee Weapons for two points, and know how to use everything, but getting Clubs, Blades, and Axes Weapon Elements costs three points, because you don't get groupings.

So, if you have a character with WF: Common Melee, and WE: Blades with his martial arts, and he disarms the Black Knight, he can pick up BKs sword and use it.

But, if you have your own sword, and no WF or WE, you can use your martial arts, because you get your points. If you disarm the BK, you don't get the full benefit of using his sword, because you don't have the skill. Too specialized I guess. "I'm really good with my sword, and no other."

D

I agree with you but the examples in NH have characters with weapons list under WEs that they don't have WF for.

[misterdeath]

There are?! Damn it, I thought I checked all of those. Grrr.

D

[Agent Escafarc]

OK I found the answer (UMA page 102) It says you must have both to use the maneuvers.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by misterdeath
There are?! Damn it, I thought I checked all of those. Grrr.

D

After further reveiw only DR Pain(Ringside Objects) and Wong Fei(Umbrella) don't have WF to match WE. I supose you could rule that these are clubs so don't need WF but I don't know if I would rule that way (especialy the umbrella)

[misterdeath]

Ringside objects probably are clubs (chairs, microphones). But I completely missed the umbrella. Sigh.

D

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Agent Escafarc
OK I found the answer (UMA page 102) It says you must have both to use the maneuvers.

Cool. That's a built in counter to the Weapons Master (+3 PSL vs Non Proficiency Penalties == 9 pts). You can do it, but you can't use your Martial Arts Abilities in conjunction.

D

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Agent Escafarc
OK I found the answer (UMA page 102) It says you must have both to use the maneuvers.

Thanks, AE!

[Arthur]

Originally posted by misterdeath
Cool. That's a built in counter to the Weapons Master (+3 PSL vs Non Proficiency Penalties == 9

I would consider treating that as "WF: everything". Just as CSLs become more general as you spend more points, I think that's enough to qualify as an overall WF.

Reality check: once you've mastered enough different weapons, any new one is usually just a slight variation on one you know.

[Catacomb]

A WF=everything should be pretty darn expensive though. Maybe the total of all known classes?

[Arthur]

Nine points srikes me as pretty expensive. Let's say you spend 9 points on WF. How often are you going to be forced to use a weapon not on the list? That should pretty much cover every weapon you would carry plus any reasonably common one you would find. That's why WF reaches the point of diminishing returns.

[Catacomb]

Diminished returns? Do you play Rolemaster?