Should I buy?

[Tclynch]

Ok, I am trying to figure out if I should buy this book, honestly. I have not seen it. One- I am leary of the Genre books in general, having found only one (Fantasy Hero) to have been of use, so far. Champions Genre book- biggest waste of money I've spent on a Hero book. Star Hero- Eh, not interested. But the FH Genre book was VERY good, IMHO
So, is DC like FH? I am interested in the modern setting and loved Danger Int when it was out. I do have some knowledge of spies, investigations, low level supers, etc. So if all it does is cover the genre (like Champions) then I have ZERO interest. On the other hand, if it does MORE like Fantasy Hero, then I think I would like it. HELP?

[GamePhil]

Not sure what you're saying is the difference between Champions and FH. They both detail their genres and gave methods of using the system to simulate them. Could you explain further?

However, I think if you liked Fantasy HERO and are interested in action/adventure, you'll like Dark Champions. It has a lot of game-friendly details on various modern subjects, including criminalistics, and also quite a number of write ups for gear and special abilities. If that's the difference, you should be satisfied.

[CourtFool]

May I suggest Arcady's review.

[arcady]

For the short review, look at my signature (which might change if you read this a few days after I posted it)...

For the long answer, yeah read the review.

For the annoyed answer, somebody tell me what the &*&(!!?! is up with rpg.net taking so ^$*(@!!! long to get reviews posted...

[Toadmaster]

Yes, despite my grumblings it is worth getting. Like the original it has more focus on the vigillante crime fighting genre than the rest of the "modern" genres (the source of my grumblings), but it will still be handy for non-super powered games. If you are familiar with the 4th ed products I'd say it is DC and Eye for an eye combined and polished up. There is a fair amount of completely new material as well. If you are a gun bunny (guilty) you may not care for the ammo and firearms section, but then again if you are, you probably already have your own ideas for that anyway.

[Blue]

You come to the Hero Games website and ask if you should buy the latest hero games product? Hmmm... that's a toughy to answer ...

Actually, to date, this is my favorite of the Genre books. I enjoy the Super-skills even more than the powers in the USPDB.

[TheQuestionMan]

I would have had to wait until payday, but the Comic/Game Store I frequent said I was good for it and let me take it home (I only live a block away). It was better than the the play test, better than the Arcady's review IMOHO, and now I am indebt to the shop .

It's an awesome product and hope to see much more out of future products. My only complaint is the use of recycled art work. Thanks DoJ.

Make mine a HERO

QM

[lazarus]

... now I want.

But my limited budget is aiming for 5ER and the Bestiary.

And I think I dreamed last night I was talking to a formless person who I knew was Steve, and talking to him about 5ER. I distinctly recall saying "Fiver" in my dream.

Laz

[Metaphysician]

I agree, that the Champions genre book is the least interesting of the bunch, though I *still* can't place exactly why I think that.

[arcady]

Champions genre book - It isn't written from the right perspective.

The Champions book tries to talk about a world with superhumans, and not about comic books.

This is part of why even before you had RPGs that could do a good job at comic books many people chose not to play Champions - it has never done a good job of making itself feel like a comic book...

In past we have had other RPGs that felt more like comic books even when the game mechanics failed, and they got what niche they could from their flavor. V&V is a great example of this. The game engine was flawed, but the feel of the material was very 70s comic book.

The new Champions books just don't feel like comic books, they feel like 'world with supers.' That leaves them a bit dry.

A genre book needs to capture its genre.

[Metaphysician]

I don't know, a good deal of the so-called "necessary genre elements" are either unworkable in an RPG, or undesired by most players.

[Blue]

... now I want.

But my limited budget is aiming for 5ER and the Bestiary.

And I think I dreamed last night I was talking to a formless person who I knew was Steve, and talking to him about 5ER. I distinctly recall saying "Fiver" in my dream.

Laz

Formelss? Did he try to shake tentacles with you? Yeh, that's him!

[arcady]

I don't know, a good deal of the so-called "necessary genre elements" are either unworkable in an RPG, or undesired by most players.

I would have to disagree, and would cite a long history of competing supers RPGs as my source.

From V&V to Marvel 80's version to M&M to SaS to the new Marvel, all captured comics books very well. Prior to M&M they suffered from poor game mechanics, but that was not a result of how they captured comics, and two of the entries on my list have both very good and workable mechanics AS WELL AS capturing comics (M&M and the new Marvel in my opinion - SaS had a stat inflation issue or I'd cite it as well).

Nothing about the genre makes it unworkable as an RPG.

From games like Toon to Paranoia to Call of Cthulu, we have seen that an RPG can capture almost any genre if it is willing to be tailored to that genre.

Early Champions didn't capture comics as well because it never gave us strong source material. Present Champions has a genre book that aims in the wrong direction, an issue completely aside from the very hotly debated of whether or not the game mechanics fit comics or not (which we don't need to get into in this thread within a thread - here we're just talking about the genre book). Rewrite the genre book, have it written by a comic book fiend such that it does capture comics books and NOT 'a world of superhumans' and then we can have the debate about the game mechanics, somewhere else...

Personally, I feel that at present a Champions GM who wants to have a game that feels like a comic book is better of buying a competitors book and stealing the source material over to Hero.

[wylodmayer]

I dunno, I rather liked the Champions book. Mind you, let me say up front that my current campaign is biased toward a world-with-superheroes slant rather than a four-color-universe angle, but I still have my reasons for liking the book. Let me briefly outline them, so that you know where I am coming from and we can take the dialogue to a more meaningful level that "is not/is so."

To wit:
1) The early sections of the book do a good job of covering the eras of comics and their genre conventions. Whether or not one believes that the main focus of the book is real-world-with-heroes, there is explicit advice for how to run a superhero game with differing perspectives in those early chapters, from the slightly-above-pulp genres of the earliest years to the over-the-top superhero antics of the silver age. Any book that covers in detail such a wide selection of the flavors of superherodom can't be *that* heavily biased in one direction.
2) I found the section on types of superheroes to be very useful. Personally, I can recall when Champions II came out, so obviously I've been at this for a while, but several of my players are less thoroughly steeped in the genre, and the advice offered was very useful to them. Even with as much experience as I have had in the game, I found this chapter useful as well, simply because it helps remove the element of thought from throwing together certain lesser NPCs (which is a great boon to a harried GM). I didn't feel that any of the information in this section was particularly biased toward a certain flavor of the superhero genre.
3) For similar reasons as number (2), the random superhero generator was greatly appreciated. I have missed this since Champions III (or II... no, I think III).
4) The rules on superheroic antics such as bounding, stopping tidal waves, and so on were greatly appreciated as well as explications of how to apply already established rules to genre-specific situations. In this I am particularly baffled as to how anyone might claim that the book is slanted toward a more "realistic" superhero angle - including rules for stopping speeding trains, tidal waves, and even (!!) meteors is pretty darn superheroey.
5) Overall I found the book very rewarding, and fairly neutral in terms of genre flavor. The Champions Universe book is another matter, of course, but Champions spent most of its time talking about staple conventions from a gamer's perspective, such as bases, vehicles, certain mechanical issues (see #4, above), and how to build such-and-such an effect or character.

In sum, let me point out that I think that Hero is *inherently* biased in a very slight fashion toward more realistic superhero games. It is crunchy enough that I prefer it for more realistic games, and tend to shy away from it if I plan to run a more over-the-top four-color game. I hasten to clarify that I don't think that Hero is *incapable* of reproducing the genre (heaven forfend the flames that would result from that); I merely wish to reassert the obvious point that the mechanics of a system help influence the sorts of games it is equipped to render in a satisfactory fashion. So perhaps those readers who feel that Champions is "overly realistic" are picking up on that.

[Toadmaster]

Champions genre book - It isn't written from the right perspective.

The Champions book tries to talk about a world with superhumans, and not about comic books.

This is part of why even before you had RPGs that could do a good job at comic books many people chose not to play Champions - it has never done a good job of making itself feel like a comic book...

This is funny, I'm used to people complaining that HERO is based to much on supers and comics to work for "realistic" games. Don't play enough Champions to render an opinion on it (I'm used to rebutting the doesn't do low power comment).