Arquebus, Musket, Cannon

[Agent Chains]

I am starting a campaign based in 1495 A.D. Venice, Italy. I was wondering what peoples' thoughts were on the damage and modifiers for the arquebus, musket, and cannons. My research says that the arquebus of the time fires a 1 inch ball about 100 yards, the musket wouldn't be invented for about 30 years but when it is would fire up to a 2 inch ball about 200 yards, and cannons have upgraded from using large stone balls to smaller iron balls from 3 to 8 inches. This upgrade in cannon technology is doing a number on castle walls.

The main advantage talked about for the arquebus was the lack of training need to use it properly as compared to the crossbow and bow, so I was thinking that it probably does about the same damage as the crossbow. This was what I was thinking for them.

Arquebus- 1 1/2d6, -1 OCV, 2 phases to load

Musket- 2d6, +1 range, 2 phases to load

Cannon 3 to 4 inch- 2d6+1, +1 stun multiplier, -2 OCV, +2 range, 2 phases to load

Cannon 5 to 6 inch- 2 1/2d6, +1 stum multiplier, armor piercing, -2 OCV, +2 range, 2 phases to load

Cannon 7 to 8 inch- 3d6, +2 stun multiplier, armor piercing, -2 OCV, +2 range, 2 phases to load

Anyone else ever dealt with this time period? Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks in advance

[PoorWandering 1]

Your loading time seem a very short esp for the cannons. I would also give them a chance to blow up when used. It was quite commin for gunners to be missing fingers, eyes or even limbs. Early guns hand made of often suspect quality metals were far from reliable esp when repeatedly fired with out being allowed to cool. I'm not positive but i seenm to remember that the grand cannon that the turks used to batter Constinople never fired more than a few shots an hour. I sugest at least tripleing the loading times on the cannon and then letting a skilled crew cut that with skill rolls. A similar idea of long reload time shortened with a skill roll should apply to the smaller arms. In battle or hunting these small arms rarely got a second shot. By the time you could reload the survivors of the first volley would be in hand to hand combat. In your time period you are talking lit-match-shoved-in-hole for a fireing mechanism and rather crude black powder. I recommend a ltrip to a library to find a text on the history of firearms. Any decent book will give you an idea of how long it took to relod these early beasts. Black powder recreationists websites would also be a good source. Howecer not very many people today work with stuf from the time period you are thinking of, too dangerous. Just think the hight of Carribian piracy was 2-300 years after your period and was still common for a pirate to loose a hand or eye when their own gun misfired. Even the muskets used in the French & Indian war were slower and had shorter range than the bows used. The only real advantages the guns had were ease of use and stopping power. .75 and .6 caliber musket balls made very messy wounds. food for thought anyway.

[Captain Obvious]

The small arms listed in Fantasy Hero fit pretty well with stats I was working up on my own previously. I'd have to look at cannons and stuff again.

Anyway, this post is here to make sure I'm reminded of this thread. I'll post my stats for cannons later, assuming someone else doesn't post better ones first.

[Agent Chains]

Thanks. I haven't run a fantasy game in a while now and forgot to look in fantasy hero. I will assume that Steve did more research then me. I just browsed the internet a bit (and did more on Venice history then technology). For cannons I think I will put the loading time at a minute, but lower the activation roll if they don't wait longer then that for cooling. Maybe I'll lower loading time for the matchlocks to an extra phase, instead of a turn, if they take loading as a skill and make a roll, otherwise keep things like Steve has them. His activation rolls look good, though I think I will have them explode on a 16 or greater and just not fire on the other rolls. I had been debating the activation rolls, but couldn't decide.

[bblackmoor]

I am starting a campaign based in 1495 A.D. Venice, Italy. I was wondering what peoples' thoughts were on the damage and modifiers for the arquebus, musket, and cannons.

A friend of mine worked up some firearms from historical periods, and I posted a PDF he wrote on here a while back:

Historical Firearms

I would not be surprised if the new Fantasy Hero had as much or more information, but I haven't read that yet, and don't have it in front of me at the moment. But maybe that PDF will be useful.

[TheImperialKhan]

I would strongly advice that you change that "2 phases to load". There were sixteen, yes I said sixteen, steps to loading and firing a musket and it took your average musketman about a minute to do them all. By the late 18th century advances in weapons and drill plus the advent of paper cartridges had that down to about 30 seconds. There was a good reason why troops would wait to charge until after the enemy had fired their volley.

Also in those days cannons were rated for the weight of shot they threw not their bore and that remained until the introduction of shell-firing howitzers in the 19th century. In the period you're talking about cannons were either big and immobile, seige guns were often built in place, or small and mobile in the 4 to 6 pounder range and on wheeled carriages. They also took even longer to load and fire, a crack gun crew taking about a minute and a half.

Hope this helps.

[Agent Chains]

Thanks for the info. I guess I will be increasing load time, with a loading skill to make it shorter. ImperialKhan where did you get your info on shot size? A number of websites that I visited gave size of bore for historical cannons and a couple gave weight of the ball as well. A 3" ball being about 5 pounds, a 6" ball being about 32 pounds and so on. They basically all said that after the switch to smaller iron balls the smaller cannons could be put on wheels and transported with relative ease. Well, relative ease compared to the huge cannons that had been firing the large stone balls before that. I would assume that the 3" (5 pound), 4" (9 pound), and 5" (17 pound) cannons would be the ones small enough to be wheeled around on the battlefield. Anything firing the 6" to 8" balls sounds more like the seige cannons that would need a bit more work to steady. It sounds like your information may be different or was that along the lines you were thinking? I don't need to be completely exact, but I want to be in the ball park.

[bblackmoor]

""In the early fifteenth century the introductionof the culverin provided the first fieldpiece of the Middle Ages. Standard bores were still far in the future, but a diameter of one to three inches appears to have been the rule. The firts examples were mounted on sledges, with wheels to berevived before the midle of the fifteenth century.

"At a remarkably early date nearly all the modern types of artillery ammunition were invented. Neither the word 'shell' nor the projectile itself found widespread adoption until the late eighteenth century, yet gunners of the Middle Ages experimented with hollow iron spheres filled with gunpowder and clamped or screwed together. Called 'grenades' when round or 'bombs' when oblong, these primitive shells depended on a time fuse which had to be lighted separately....

"Not even crude incendiary shells and red-hot shot were lacking, both being reported before 1470.

"Solid shot continued to be the standard projectile, however, until comparatively modern times. Throughout the Midle Ages stone cannon balls were preferred to iron for reasons of economy, and every town maintained its own ammunition quarry. Culverins were few as compared to mortars and bombards of lage caliber, for the best results of medieval artillery were secured in seigecraft. The 'MonsMeg', an early fifteenth-century wrought-iron bombard now preserved in Edinburgh Castle, had a bore of 20 inches and fired a stone ball of 300 pounds. Even larger bores were known, but these monsters had a range of only a few hundreds yards."

- Montross, Lynn. War Through The Ages. Harper & Row, 160; Part Two, Chapter 7, page 180.

"Since the of that arm [field artillery] by Jan Zizka [circa 1419], very little progress had been made in 200 years as compared to improvements in ordnance and ammuniton. Hence a wider variety of guns existed than the soldiers of Europe knew how to use effectively, as is evident from a seventeenth century English list:

[list of 16 types of cannon from 8.5 inches down to 1 inch]

"Although solid cast-iron shot remained the usual projectile, the primitive shell had recently been improved. Up to about 1580the gunpowder in the hollow sphere of sheet iron had to be ignited separately. The gunner lightd the slow match in the shell before touching off the main charge in the cannon; and if the latter misfired, the piece might be blown up before the missile could be exracted. The objection was met with a new kind of fuse ignited by the propellent charge, and by the end of the century such projectiles were being commonly used in seiges."

- Montross, Lynn. War Through The Ages. Harper & Row, 160; Part Three, Chapter 5, page 272.

Hope this is helpful.

[TheImperialKhan]

I've written a couple of historical novels as well as some short stories set in the late 18th century. In getting the details correct I've done a fair bit of research on that era and the earlier ones. The load times come from a handout that I got years ago at the Bunker Hill Monument and Pavillion.

When I first started looking into things I was quite surprised at how small the field artillery pieces were in comparison to naval guns which are themselves quite small compared to seige artillery. And you know what the funny part is? As time marched on seige artillery got smaller while naval and field artillery got larger. Since what was writing was naval fiction more-or-less that's where my focus was in research but the books I used also had some information on shore artillery as well. Throughout the 17th century, and I suspect the 16th as well, guns were identify by a distinctive name rather than bore or weight of shot; here are a few example from a reproduction of a gunnery table from 1627 that is printed in E.H.H. Archibald's The Fighting Ship of the Royal Navy 897-1984: the Cannon Royall with a bore of 8.5 inches firing a 66 pound ball, the Demy Cannon with a bore of 6.5 inches firing a 30.5 pound ball, the Minion with a bore of 3.25 inches firing a 4 pound ball and the Faulconet with a bore of 2 inches firing a 1.25 pound ball. BTW that's how those names were spelled back then.

Napoleon's field artillery of nearly two centuries later topped out a twelve-pounders and that was considered quite heavy for the time. The British topped out at nine-pounders but fours and sixes were more usual until 1808 when a few nasty surprises with the French prompted them to opt for heavier guns. Mammoth seige artillery had fallen out of use at this time much as Battleships have today, they were still powerful but a fundemental change in the way wars were fought had rendered them obsolete, although some were turned into shore batteries used to protect naval vessels at anchor.

BTW I've seen a picture of MonsMeg, the damned thing is a dinosaur. Slow to fire, almost completely immobile, with an absolutely pitiful range it was useful for only one thing: battering down the walls of a castle or fortress and even then only when protected by infantry to prevent a rush of men from charging and destroying it.

[Agent Chains]

Thank you. Very helpful.

[LordGhee]

here is a post I did on the 2nd of the black powder threads off the old boards
I saw on amazon that there is an osprey book on the galleys of venice ( or is the lapaneto campain) nice galley on the cover. lots of books on subject will this month get gunpowder.

hope this helps

Dear Sirs,
This thread has caused me to start on a gunpowder timeline, which I plan to post here for your edification. But the first one hundred and fifty years took ten pages I decide to post a shorter line that deals with the black powder weapons. I deleted the important people listing, and most battle descriptions this is still long.
1250AD – Roger Bacon and others discover gunpowder around this time. Many keep it secret but it effeteness is limited by the impure ingredients.

1300 AD Somewhere in Northern Italy a person notices that if you take a tube and tie it to a board as a platform, cram in gunpowder (made with the new pure saltpeter) and put in an object, light it with fire and boom; the object is propelled with great force.

The status of warfare at the time in France, England, central Germany and Italy is that heavy cavalry rules the battlefield. The knight the main user of the heavy cavalry style is armored in double chain with knee and elbow plates. Infantry generally carries the large shield and long spear. Most of the time infantry is not around as it is easier (and their job) to let the nobles fight. Light troops are generally armed with bow (75lbs draw) crossbow (200lbs draw) or javelin (Spanish style). Their ranges are 200m for the bow, 250 for the cross bow and 50m for the javelin. Edward I of England adds longbows (100lb draw) to his army. The longbow range of 300m and rate of fire give the English one hundred years of battlefield successes.
The Mongols for the past 60 years have been showing the world why the gent that grab a bow and jumped on the horse was so bright. Over most of the world the main troop type is the horse bowman except in Europe and the new world where horses are not due to be imported for 250 years.
Siege warfare is carried out with the aid of the trebuchet and catapults. Which results in the height of castle building. The Mongols learning from the Chinese that trebuchet can be built big, build them to hurl up to 2000lb stones. These stones crush the walls at Baghdad and the assassin’s castles breaking the group. The Trebuchet range is 400m.

Note there are many websites and a great PBS show on building and using Trebuchet.

1338AD – The first listing of thunder jars in France followed in England and Germany by 1342AD.

The state of gun technology as of the middle of the 1300’s show change. The guns start off as wood tubes that are hollowed out tied to a log and filled with powder and things to shoot (balls of stone and spears). The big problem in guns is the gun bursting (blowing up). This is due to many factors like: overcharging with too much powder, fatigue due to use, poor workmanship. The wood guns quickly get wrapped in leather and rope probably to fix burst guns, then to strengthen them to keep them from bursting. Later wire is used to wrap the gun. Then around the mid 13th century somebody figures if wire is good then a metal tube is better.
Early guns are small to us to day and used in sieges for they must be put together at the site and then the powder mixed. The first use of guns in war is in Sicily in the mid 1300. They are all individually made and different sizes, which makes it a skilled profession (as shown by their pay). The Gunners are quickly accepted into the artillery guilds.
Guns in general fire a softball size stone about 600m+. The 600m + range of these weapons is the reason they are accepted quickly as they out range any catapult, ballista and Trebuchet (400m+). The guns have a very slow rate of fire due to having to let the piece cool so cook offs do not happen and general bursting habits limits a guns life. They are mention at many sieges and towards the end of the 1300s start to show up in numbers. Armies need a least a few to clear out the enemy’s guns so the rest of the artillery can deploy or be stopped from deploying.

1346 AD. – The Battle of Crecy in France with the French losing to the British with their longbows.


There is a report on two small cannons at the battle, and they are used to no reported effect. During the day of the battle the Genoese crossbow men (4000) suffer through a rain. Their crossbow get wet and since the bows are wood and animal parts have less range and effect than normal. The English have bow cases and weathered the rain with no bad effects. The Italians remembered being out range and shot down and start looking to improve their weapon.

By 1400 AD guns have developed into two types. Handgunns and what will be called cannons. Handgunns have been used for a few decades mainly in sieges. These weapons are big crew by couple of gunners and they fire a shot the sizes of a mans fist. The recoil is severe and pictures show a hook at the end of a gun that holds the wall to brace it. Guns are still manly used in sieges, as a source of fire is needed. Black powder is made at factories and can carry now for limited time. Old powder is still a problem, as it gets unstable and or useable. The main reason that these weapons are used is range. Repeat range 600m+. Early cannon and handgunns out range bows and catapults of all types. Rate of fire is in the minutes to reload with only a few rounds used.
The guns still heat up quickly and cook offs still happen. Rate of fire is limited to a few rounds a day still but guns are not bursting as much. The touchhole is the firing mechanism. This will misfire half to one quarter of the time. (Most of the time the firer can retouch and fire the piece.). Cannon have developed into two types, the cannon used for range and the bombard, which is a larger in diameter gun with a short barrel used to hurl very large stones to smash walls. This type shows up in the 1430’s and a bombard race starts in Germany with every country joining at some point; the end result is Ivan the Great of Russia ordering the casting of a bombard that can hurl a 5,000 lb stone. It is so big it is not moved from the foundry in Russia until the modern era.
The Italians have developed the steel crossbow (500lb draws and 300m range.) Early in the century it is cocked with a pulley and rope. Later a wind less is added by mid century on heavier models with a 700lb + draws and up to 400m range. The steel crossbow is not affected by weather as examples have been immersing in water for hours, pulled out and used with out any effect to range or power. The Italian’s remember the rain at Cercy.
The French, leaders in amour protection have started to adopt the coat of plates (easily the most mistranslated piece of lore). This armour is made usually of two leather (other fabrics where used) layers with metal plates the sizes of playing cards sandwich between them. The palates where rivet or sown in. This gave very good protection unless a point found the gap between the plates.


1411 AD. First drawing of a matchlock mechanism will not be in general military use unit the late 1400.

1415 AD Battle of Agincourt. The English fight the French. The English win again.

Here are some notes. The cannon with the French never make it out of the armies rear.
There is a company of heavy crossbows (all crossbow at this battle are steel) of about 300 that had kept their shields (the pavis) and moved into the woods on the British left flank. Using teamwork, advancing by fire and cover beat the archers in there during the battle. Realizing that the French have loss the battle these men retire.
The new armour coat of plates remains popular due to the protection it gives but stories of arrows penetrating it abound.
The Hit Rate of missile fire in battle has been in general to be figured that only (see Hughes book Firepower) one in a hundred shots (gun, rifle or arrow) hits in a battle. If that is the case then the 5000 British archers each started with 40 arrows and were supplied with 40 more arrows during the battle, fire over 400,000 arrows that day. With a hit rate of one in a hundred you get 4000 hits, say 2000 more knights where then killed in the hand-to-hand fighting then you get 6,000 casualties. In the record the French army was organized in 3 groups called battles. Each battle was about 7,000. Only the first two battles fought. This gives a casualty rate of 50 percent for the first two battles of the French army. This is consider by most analyst and the U.S.Army to render a unit ineffective. From the records this is about right. The English lose about 1,600 men.

1425AD Jan Ziska in bohemia leads the peasants in a revolt that last 20 plus years. He uses wagons as movable forts with lots of missile troops in and behind them. Every one in Europe hears of his successes and how the Handgunns are very effective. Their use during battles is remarkable the problem of fire is solved by the use of the wagons forts

In the year of 1435AD the metal workers of Mainz get together to build the first suit of plate armour. This project has over 1500 armourers working on it and is to show the leadership of this Germany city in metalworking. It is priced at over 100,000marks. This is equivalent to a billion dollars of today’s money. It is so expensive that the group gives it to King Charles of Spain who is at the time is the riches king in Europe with an income of over 500,000 marks. They get an immediate order for four suits of plate from him at a much reduce cost. At the first siege that he wears it many Nobles are suitable impressed and orders come in (4 suits then 8, then 12 ect).
This suit of plate becomes the standard that every soldier wants. In order to prove the quality of the merchandise armour start to proof their product by shooting the breastplate (after purchase) with a crossbow at 30 ft then with a pistol shot after the crossbow is no longer used. This is the start of the proof mark. This armour is capable of stopping most blows with swords, arrows and crossbow blots (heavy included). Many examples in history abound. Unfortunately handgunns and cannon (of course) are the threat for the energy is still transferred to the wearer. Japanese armour makers (circa 1600AD) are driven to distraction for they can make plate that stops arrows but the bullet crushes or the armour stops bullets and the arrow pierces. By 1540 the Spanish and Venice armies fighting the Turks are all in Plate vs. the Turks in chain.

1450 Battle of Formigny the French using cannon to start the battle win against the English longbow.


1452AD Battle of Castillion, The French have driven the British out of France except at Calais, but do not rule wisely. The people of Aquitaine revolted and the British send an army under the Earl of Shrewsbury to help them. The French send an army under the marshal of France and the Bureau brothers commanding the siege element to the area where the army sieges Castillion. The French set up a camp with an irregular wall. The French have 600 guns (about 300+ handgunns). The Earl marches to the relief of the town. As he approach the town the British defeat a force of lancers who move to the camp. The Earl learns (wrongly) that the French are leaving and try to catch the army on the march and attacks the camp. The guns cut down the English like the longbows did the French with the wall channeling the troops into kill zones. The Earl is killed and the army destroyed. The revolt ends.

1453 AD The Siege and taking of Constantinople happens. The Turks on the fourth attempt in 70 years, siege the city. After 50 days of bombardment with the biggest gun in Europe at the time take the city in the 5th assault. The gun fires a 600lb stone ball that is thrown 1000m or more that crush whole towers and wall segments. The guns fires up to 10 rounds a day with 5 seaming to be the average rate. The gun on the last shot ordered after a long day firing burst killing the builder. Urban the builder went to the sultan after every other king in Europe turned him down. At this Siege Trebuchet, catapults and guns are used together and after this guns take over siege work totally by the end of the century.
This event ends the middle Ages.


Notes. Guns up until 1700 seem to have two limits, after 200 rounds the gunner starts thinking about melting the gun down because of fatigue, bursting becomes a threat. 10rds rapid (in one text of the 1620s 3 to 4 hours time and the gun gets to hot.) seems to heat the gun up to much. Gunners will cool them any way they can (water preferred but wine and other fluids in a pinch will do) but the insides retain heat very well. Heated guns can cook off rounds and in the heated state are weakened and have a greater risk to burst. Notice that the great gun had fire 250rds or more over 50 days and fired many shots (10 plus) that day there by earning the double chance of a burst from heat fatigue the barrel and fatigue.
Handgunns are now the size that one man uses. The guns are a tube on a stick that is held under the arm. One man can aim and fire it but siege use is still the main use do to a need for a fire. The guns by 1460’s are down to firing a baseball size stone. Handgunners are ½ of the missile troops with garrison and siege work their mainstay. Crossbowmen are team with pike; the pike shelter the crossbows from enemy cavalry on the battlefield. The Pavis has gone out of use probably due to a handgun shot able to smash it turning it to fragments. The cavalry all are mostly in Plate and records of handgun shot hitting and knocking men off horseback with the plate smashed but the man alive (unconscious).

This is the first 150years of guns in war

In Champions guns are smashing weapons early on. Normal dice attacks.

In the first 50 years you need to make the powder on site. It dose not carry well and loses effect. It will fail to fire half the time. But the gunner can retouch (fire) the gun. Skill levels help when loading because a better seal will fire further.
Remember early guns are wood tube strengthen.
Later metal guns are made by a smith who hammers bands of metal around a wood core. The bands are melted together and the core burnt out.
Guns retain heat and guns that are to hot can if wood: start on fire, burst on firing like a bomb or just split. This is around ten rounds fired in a day.
Loading guns take a long time. You have to spoon in the powder and pack it after waiting for it to cool or at least the sparks die.
Ammo is stone, and this has to be carved. One advantage of stone is that it shatters on a hard surface and fragments can kill. One disadvantage of stone is that it shatters on a hard surface and dose not carry all of it energy to the wall it is trying to knock down.
Guns are all different sizes so the stone ammo will be only made for and fire in one gun.

Suggested damage done.

Wood guns -500meters-8 to 10 dice.
Early metal guns 8 to 11 dice.
1400 wall handgunn 10 dice.
1450 handgunn 9 dice but greater range do to better fit of shot (truer cores) and powder.
1453 great gun of Urban, 14dice one hex area effect with explosive effect on striking hard surface.

Now some of your are thinking what about a hex row effect, well it was not discovered until the 1630’s that cannon shot bounces. This grazing effect was not used until the 1700. You shoot the gun at less than a mans height and it bounces along until it runs out of energy being a danger the whole way. Before this you lob shot onto people and it only bounces a few meters.