Mental Powers: Classes of Mind Question

[S7Michelle]

A few aspects of the “Classes of Minds” for Mental powers have been bothering me for quite a while now. And since I have some free time, I thought I’d post and ask if someone could explain the logic behind this for me.


Aspect 1: The following two powers (taken from the Until Superpowers Database) cost the same number of points.

Control Plants: Mind Control 10d6 (Plant Class of Minds) Total Cost 50 points. (The character can mentally control intelligent plants and plantlike beings)

Mental Control: Mind Control 10d6 (Human Class of Minds) Total Cost 50 points. (The character can mentally control humans)

However, at least in every game I’ve ever played they are incredibly far from being equally valuable. I’ve never seen an intelligent plant in any game I’ve played and can only think of one or two I’ve ever even seen mentioned.

The discrepancy isn’t as great for the animal, technology, and alien class minds. However, I’m playing a character that can just affect animal class minds, and even with a very good GM, I’ve still seen a lot more situations where being able to control human minds would be far more useful than my ability to control animals. To be honest, at times, (even though it is totally out of concept), I’m tempted to buy the ability to affect humans mind class on my powers just because it would far more than double the powers usefulness.


Aspect 2: Being an individual that belongs to one of the rarer classes of minds provides quite a bit of protection for no point cost.

At one point, our group had three humans, one alien, one ghost, and four dogs (followers). In order for the GM to create a mentalist that could affect the entire group she’d have had to create one that could affect Human, Animal, Alien, and Undead mind classes. Useful for the group I suppose. Still, considering how few mentalists I’ve seen with the Undead Mind Class (one total), it does seem a bit unfair that one player would be safe from a 15d6 mental attack from practically every mentalist we’d come across.

Maybe I’m missing something. But something just seems really out of whack here.

I guess there must have been some significant flaw with the old way of doing it. (Having "only effects a certain type of being" as a limitation). But it seems like there should be a more fair way of doing it. Possibly something along the lines of what they did with invisibility and flash where some groups cost more than others.

[DrFurious]

Maybe I’m missing something. But something just seems really out of whack here.

I guess there must have been some significant flaw with the old way of doing it. (Having "only effects a certain type of being" as a limitation). But it seems like there should be a more fair way of doing it. Possibly something along the lines of what they did with invisibility and flash where some groups cost more than others.

You're right. The class of minds thing could be considered a required -0 limitation - except for the fact that in the circumstances you've mentioned they would be higher value limitations. In fact, I'd probably just chuck it out altogther and say that if it's got anything that qualifies as a mind, you can affect it - with a proviso on the power's special effect. Anything that the special effect wouldn't be likely to cover would require a Power skill roll (as a power stunt) to use (IMO, this skill doesn't nearly see enough use in most games). Does this reward sfx that are broad? Sure, but not every restriction on a power needs to be written out and deliminated beforehand.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yes, I would also consider "Classes of Minds" to be a required -0 limitation for mental powers, then depending on the genre, setting etc, the value would change.

For example, a character with Mind Control: Animals in a Fantasy genre (where animals are about as common as people) would be a -0 limitation. However, in a modern day campaign where animals are less common it would be a -1/2 limtation. In a scifi campaign that is set on a space station, it could be as high as -1, however in a galactic explorers campaign, where the PC's commonly encounter alien fauna, it could be only -1/4 or even -0.

[Magmarock]

While I like the idea of recognizing the different classes of minds, I think the 5th Edition rules requiring Mentalists to pay more to affect them all are unfair.

No other attack form is limited to certain targets like the Mental powers are now, yet the cost for Mental powers remains the same. To create a mentalist that can affect all normal targets- like the energy blaster's EB can, or the brick's punch can- the PC has to be built with significantly more character points. And in campaigns where the Active Point is capped, the Mentalist PC is hampered even more.

I'm sure there is a reasonable way to even out this problem. Any suggestions out there?

I thought the 4th Ed was better in this regard, when a Mentalist could take a Limitation on a power for not being able to affect certain classes of minds. It made much more sense and didn't hurt the Mentalist character for game balance.



Mags

[Sociotard]

I might chime in that, if a big part of your concept and point allocation is the ability to control animals, a good GM would then try to put more animals in the game than he normally would, so you could enjoy yourself. All the guards walk around with german shepherds, all the masterminds have DNPC cats, etc.

I might also chime in that I wouldn't ever let a character take another class of minds, or, at the very least, make up some point cost for taking it. My reason? Mechanon. He's a robot, and the author could have given him the machine class of minds, but he didn't. He's described such that his cognitive circuits are so human, he can be affected by normal mental powers.

That having been said, a limitation on mental powers that affect a somewhat rare class of minds doesn't sound half bad. Another possibility, a house rule I've considered, would be to allow a mentalist to affect all minds. If a mind isn't one he bought a class for, that mind is treated as if it had 50% resistant mental Damage Reduction. Oh sure, the animal-based mentalist has a hard time reading humans, but he can sort of do it. A little. I've never actually tried this, so I've no idea how it would work.

[OddHat]

I tend to ignore this rule for free willed Spirits, intelligent animals, AIs and Aliens. It doesn't fit any genre of fiction I've ever read. I will allow non-human characters to buy Mental Defnese or Mental Damage Reduction defined as "Non-Human Mind", and I will force mentalists encountering a new class of mind to make a Power Skill roll, but that's it.

I do require mental powers that work on Non-Sentient machines (i.e. Cyberpsi) to be defined as such, and I don't allow those powers to cross over unless extra points are paid.

[Vorsch]

All sentient organic/natural minds should be affected with standard Mental powers. All fiction ive read supports this tradition.

Machines on the other hand are rarely affected by mental powers. But this sort of requires Machine control powers to be able to afect Non sentient machines as well, IE any programed device should have int ego and MD ( machine only ).

so i would go with 3 class of minds, only two of which can be pcs

Sentient ( aliens humans etc )
Animal ( non sentient )
Machine ( dis-ad easily afected by computer prog )

[Zeropoint]

Maybe add another category for really, really alien, like stuff from the Qliphthothic realm (however you spell that).

Zeropoint.

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe add another category for really, really alien, like stuff from the Qliphthothic realm (however you spell that).

Let them buy Mental Defense (or mental damage reduction). If they will be a common campaign feature, then I would expect mkentalists can affect them by default. If not, then it's really not that big a deal to buy them mental defense (perhaps limited to reflect the fact that others from the Qliphthothic realm are not affected by their mental defense).

The problem still exists, however, that the ability to affect the "animal class" and/or the "machine class" should not be as expensive as the ability to affect the "sentient" class. What about a system where "sentient" is the default, "affects animal class" and "affects machine class" are advantages, and "does not affect sentients" is a limitation?

[Zeropoint]

Personally, I would expect that a mentalist making contact with a Lovecraftian extra-dimensional non-euclidean quasi-diety would get a one-way ticket to a rubber room. (sanity-draining damage shield?)

Hey, wait...if it's just a matter of being incredibly alien, then WE should have the same effect on THEM. If this doesn't happen, it suggests that the extra-dimensional beings should have a power set.

But, really, your proposal makes sense. The basic premise of the Hero system is that point cost should reflect usefullness.

Zeropoint

[zornwil]

While I like the idea of recognizing the different classes of minds, I think the 5th Edition rules requiring Mentalists to pay more to affect them all are unfair.

No other attack form is limited to certain targets like the Mental powers are now, yet the cost for Mental powers remains the same. To create a mentalist that can affect all normal targets- like the energy blaster's EB can, or the brick's punch can- the PC has to be built with significantly more character points. And in campaigns where the Active Point is capped, the Mentalist PC is hampered even more.

I'm sure there is a reasonable way to even out this problem. Any suggestions out there?

I thought the 4th Ed was better in this regard, when a Mentalist could take a Limitation on a power for not being able to affect certain classes of minds. It made much more sense and didn't hurt the Mentalist character for game balance.



Mags

I agree with this. I think the "class of minds" (CoM) discussion in 5th was interesting and made for good material for consideration, but this is one of several instances where I do not think the added rules (which are fairly loosey-goosey when you consider how much SFX will mess with them anyway) were necessary at all.

CoM should be either a Limitation construct (Plants Only) and/or a basis for discussion of what constitutes legitimate Mental targets and how to keep those broad enough. By default, machines don't typically fall into the same CoM that the "traditional" (pre-cyber) mentalists could target, as they targetted either sentient or human minds. But otherwise, CoM really is WAY more SFX-based and I don't see an issue with discussing pros and cons of various CoMs, but the way the CoM constuct was "finalized" is lacking.

Let's say your Mental commands are based on language and are carried by electrochemical messages that can be received by anything vaguely similar to the mammal/reptile/bird brain; by default, your CoM will be almost all animals (maybe not insects, that's a player/GM/SFX thing), but you'll be limited as to how well the recipient responds to English words and tone of speaking. Is this a Limitation? In most games, no. Does this mean I can tell Fido, mentally, "SIT!", even though it's not a human CoM? Absolutely.

Just a small example, there are myriad others.

Anyway, getting back to the original post, I could see two interpretations:

1 - Yes, Plants Only is a Limitation because it will limit your power.

2 - No, because as suggested elsewhere the GM will stock plants around, but ALSO, I could see allowing for a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for - such as ordering plants to Entangle a victim. And why not? I can order a person to grab someone. Differences with plants would be that there would be more exotic varieties of interaction - multiple limbs, climbing vines, and so on, including very exotic plants such as Human-Sized Venus Flytrap Killers, depending on the genre.

[DrFurious]

Anyway, getting back to the original post, I could see two interpretations:

1 - Yes, Plants Only is a Limitation because it will limit your power.

2 - No, because as suggested elsewhere the GM will stock plants around, but ALSO, I could see allowing for a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for - such as ordering plants to Entangle a victim. And why not? I can order a person to grab someone. Differences with plants would be that there would be more exotic varieties of interaction - multiple limbs, climbing vines, and so on, including very exotic plants such as Human-Sized Venus Flytrap Killers, depending on the genre.

Just to explore the second interpretation, plants in general are not able to act in the manner suggested. I personally don't know of any vines that wrap themselves around a target. Even if this differs in a campaign, you could apply the same idea toward a standard version of Mind Control. You could MC a group of normals to entangle an opponent. That said, what about controlling supers to attack your target with either powers? It can be argued that this use allows for "a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for"? IMO, requiring the player to pay more because there are instances where the target will have more exotic varieties of interaction is already taken care of in the original cost of the power.

[zornwil]

Just to explore the second interpretation, plants in general are not able to act in the manner suggested. I personally don't know of any vines that wrap themselves around a target. Even if this differs in a campaign, you could apply the same idea toward a standard version of Mind Control. You could MC a group of normals to entangle an opponent. That said, what about controlling supers to attack your target with either powers? It can be argued that this use allows for "a wider variety of actions that typically one requires more powers for"? IMO, requiring the player to pay more because there are instances where the target will have more exotic varieties of interaction is already taken care of in the original cost of the power.

I think the difference is just that with plants, as you say, they can't do that in "regular" life of the typical game whereas people can exercise such abilities. The PC with such an MC basically picks up a bunch of surprise maneuvers and "unrealistic" abilities (potentially) in the 2nd interpretation. I agree with you in any case, it's covered in the MC power intrinsically, I'm just expanding on the issues.

[OddHat]

I think the difference is just that with plants, as you say, they can't do that in "regular" life of the typical game whereas people can exercise such abilities. The PC with such an MC basically picks up a bunch of surprise maneuvers and "unrealistic" abilities (potentially) in the 2nd interpretation. I agree with you in any case, it's covered in the MC power intrinsically, I'm just expanding on the issues.

I've had players who took Mind Control: Plants and Mind Control: Fish as powers. I gave them both limits to reflect how little use I expected those powers to be in that campaign.

There are many powers that, like this, vary in value from campaign to campaign.

[dbsousa]

Within the rules, I would classify "Plants" as a Limited Class of Alien minds, seeing as any plant with a mind is alien to this world.