Gods and Champions

[nexus]

Maybe in the CU, there are fewer of that particular brand of lunatic, which is balanced by the presence of super-powered lunatics in tights.

Seriously, it would obviously be much harder to maintain some fairly extremist world-views in a world where they were demonstrably false - or at very least where there was open evidence for questioning such views.

In my own campaign, Horus-Re - a demi-god, the son of a divine entity - is not a favorite of many fundamentalist Christians and Muslims or higher-ups in the various Judeo/Christian/Islamic heirarchies, but relatively few speak out against him openly because he is a very popular figure who has done a lot of very public, very heroic deeds. He does have some who worship him, and he accepts them and offers them advice and support, but he does not particularly seek out worshippers, try to convert people, etc.

Never doubt the power of human fanaticism and denial, particularly about spiritual matters. There are people now who will fanatically deny that the Earth is more then 6000 years, that life forms change over time, several laws of physics, etc because their faith does not include them. Super Powered Gods are "clearly" pawns of the devil, sent to distract true believers from the path of righteousness and into idolotry. "The Devil can wear a pleasing face when it suits him", etc etc.

Or on the other end, seems like there should be some major crisis of faith among some crowds. After all, here is "proof" of such and such a god. you can see him, touch him, etc. You could run some interesting role playing subplots and background material with this sort of thing, if you were so inclined.

[OddHat]

Also, "Super" worlds have proof of the existence of the soul, the afterlife, demons and angels, possession ... I'd expect every church and every cult to be packed in a Supers world. Europe would be as religious as America, or more so. Religions would have far more political power as religious Supers offered their very physical services to their religious leaders. The Middle East would look completely different if the Islamic countries had supers, and the Pope would have incredible power. From a geo-political POV India and China would be even more important with their huge populations of Supers, unless they broke down completely into dozens of smaller Super-ruled countries.

Psychologists would laugh at Psychiatrists, as the brain would clearly be more than just the sum total of its chemical reactions. New Age doctors would get far more respect, thanks to the tiny percentage that actuall could cure cancer with crystals. Black and Latino supers would be a real force in American politics, and the Michigan Millitia would be backed by their own super teams ...

Heck, Wild Cards was an understatement.

[zornwil]

True, but I'd think there'd be some flak on a certain level. I mean there are some really obessive fundamentalist types that would take offense at any reference to other deites besides the Christian one being legitimate.

Fair point, but I think that flak would be minimized the same way it is now in the mainstream media - they're always objecting to something and in many (not all of course) cases simply ridiculed for it.

[zornwil]

Also, "Super" worlds have proof of the existence of the soul, the afterlife, demons and angels, possession ... I'd expect every church and every cult to be packed in a Supers world. Europe would be as religious as America, or more so. Religions would have far more political power as religious Supers offered their very physical services to their religious leaders. The Middle East would look completely different if the Islamic countries had supers, and the Pope would have incredible power. From a geo-political POV India and China would be even more important with their huge populations of Supers, unless they broke down completely into dozens of smaller Super-ruled countries.

Psychologists would laugh at Psychiatrists, as the brain would clearly be more than just the sum total of its chemical reactions. New Age doctors would get far more respect, thanks to the tiny percentage that actuall could cure cancer with crystals. Black and Latino supers would be a real force in American politics, and the Michigan Millitia would be backed by their own super teams ...

Heck, Wild Cards was an understatement.

Depends a lot on the universe, many times it's easy to rationalize (rightly or wrongly) the supers who appear more mystical or what-not.

[OddHat]

Depends a lot on the universe, many times it's easy to rationalize (rightly or wrongly) the supers who appear more mystical or what-not.

Well, it depends on the writers.

[Metaphysician]

I don't know, it seems like the Champions Universe has a relative dearth of irrational hatred types. After all, the antimutant bigots are pretty much the low men of the villain organization totem pole.

[Nightfire]

Also, "Super" worlds have proof of the existence of the soul, the afterlife, demons and angels, possession ... I'd expect every church and every cult to be packed in a Supers world. Europe would be as religious as America, or more so. Religions would have far more political power as religious Supers offered their very physical services to their religious leaders. The Middle East would look completely different if the Islamic countries had supers, and the Pope would have incredible power. From a geo-political POV India and China would be even more important with their huge populations of Supers, unless they broke down completely into dozens of smaller Super-ruled countries.

Psychologists would laugh at Psychiatrists, as the brain would clearly be more than just the sum total of its chemical reactions. New Age doctors would get far more respect, thanks to the tiny percentage that actuall could cure cancer with crystals. Black and Latino supers would be a real force in American politics, and the Michigan Millitia would be backed by their own super teams ...

Heck, Wild Cards was an understatement.

Good points, especially bringing up Wild Cards, no universe has ever given a closer look into the effects of social issues and super powers. I think the story line of Nur al Nais (spelling) was a compelling look at how dangerous fanaticism and powers would be when coupled togethor.

[ChuckB]

Ah. This very discussion got me kicked off the Warren Ellis Forum back in the day (not because anything I posted was offensive; he was just going through a big anti-superhero phase and didn't like the direction the thread was heading to). Anyways.

Thor is a visible, verifiable and tangible god who produces results. When was the last time Jesus stopped a bank robery or took on the Absorbing Man ?

[ChuckB]

I don't know, it seems like the Champions Universe has a relative dearth of irrational hatred types. After all, the antimutant bigots are pretty much the low men of the villain organization totem pole.

The 5th ed. Champs-verse is still new. I'd imagine that down the road more super hate-groups will be introduced. 4th ed. had more than a few: Genocide (anti-mutant); The Exterminators(anti-ET Ghostbuster-types); The Anti-Tech League (anti-tech mutants); EuroStar (4th ed. was anti-Europe) there's a few others I'm forgetting, but yeah, most were closer to super-villain groups.

[Metaphysician]

The 5th ed. Champs-verse is still new. I'd imagine that down the road more super hate-groups will be introduced. 4th ed. had more than a few: Genocide (anti-mutant); The Exterminators(anti-ET Ghostbuster-types); The Anti-Tech League (anti-tech mutants); EuroStar (4th ed. was anti-Europe) there's a few others I'm forgetting, but yeah, most were closer to super-villain groups.

I don't know, I like the relative absence of bigoted nutbars. Mutant Hatred has never been my favorite plot device.

[Kirby]

...EuroStar (4th ed. was anti-Europe)....

Eh, I wouldn't say this exactly. More like Eurostar was "A united Europe" in 4th Ed. With the European Union actually coming together, 5th Ed has modified (or specified) it to "A united Europe under Fiacho."

[Kirby]

Doesn't it seem that religous based Superheroes get a sort of lopsided treatment? Characters like Thor, Hercules and others never seem to catch much flak for claiming to be pagan gods and such, but Christian based supers are either unheard of or portrayed as over zealous wack jobs. I'm not a particularly religous person so please don't take this a some sort of rant, just something I've noticed.

I think characters like Thor should be facing some major PR issues, more so than mutant really. Claiming not only to be divine, but Pagan would raise some serious issues in some places. Maybe there would be an organization like the Church of the Archangel Michael or other mutant hate groups, but religously inspired and dedicated to putting down/debunking the false gods. Has anyone done anything like this in their campaigns?

These are some very good points. (And some repliers have had good points, too.) Let's look at this from a different standpoint (philisophical?). The characters in the comics are more like symbolic representations of "what would this guy be like if he were a super?" Using Norse, Greek, Egyptian myths is much easier in the U.S. because, if anyone worships them, it is an extremely small group. Also, these characters have appeared in the actual myths.

Now let's look at Judiasm, Christianity and Islam. God had all the power (and with Christianity, Jesus). You can't make a super based on God (the series would end after one issue, probably ). If you tried even making a Jesus super, there would be a great displeasurement from Christian readers and then from the Christian community once this spread. The same would be if you tried to make Mohammed with Muslims. And you can only do Moses in retrospect, really.

Looking at the offspring, while the Norse and Greek myths give great children of the gods (especially with Zeus for the Greeks), you can't do this with the Big 3 religions.

But let's look what the comics have done: Angels and demons. There is an unnamed mass of angelic beings (holy and unholy) that are up for "fair game" simply because so many religions (modern and ancient) have a form of hell and its evil beings. You can play these up how you want to, for the most part.

As for the comic or Champions "world" with revived ancient religious figures without a Christian super (or Jewish or Islamic) icon, it can not only be seen as a "don't go there" explanation, but you can play this in as being "even with all this, the Big 3 faiths have staying power - there must be something to it," or -what I like to think sometimes- is that these divine beings know that there is a greater power that exists. The comics used to reference God indirectly years ago (I haven't read regularly for years, so I don't know if they still do it) by having the supreme cosmic beings acknowledge "a superior being" without detailing it.

Personally, I treat it this way in my campaigns: I am a Christian. If a player wants to create a non-Christian, non-Jewish, non-Islamic 'divine' entity, I'm fine with it, because that's part of the genre. I wouldn't allow anyone to create a PC that is 'another' son, or a daughter of, God (or relative of Jesus). If someone wanted to create a good angel super, I'd be okay with that (though I'd secretly roll my eyes if they gave 'em wings). I wouldn't allow anyone to create a demon or half-demon, because I only GM good guy campaigns.

Now, if someone wanted to play a super that was a Christian, and had related powers, that wouldn't be a problem; it's still sticking with the comic/Champions genre.

I hope this helps. By the way, good thread!

[Kirby]

Here is a Christian super character I created a while back. I didn't finish him because the only HERO game I'm in is FH. I also have a few areas where he needs to be tweaked and changed. I wasn't sure of a name, but Paladin is his temporary one. I created him because I saw all these villains who had vulnerabilities to holy items and holy attacks, but I didn't see any heroes that would make these disadvantages be worth their points.

Here is the original thread.

Val Char
25 STR
23 DEX
25 CON
15 BODY
15 INT
15 EGO
20 PRE
16 COM
8/26 PD
8/26 ED
5 SPD
10 REC
50 END
41 STUN
6" RUN
2" SWIM
5" LEAP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
STR Roll: 14- Run: 6"
DEX Roll: 14- Swim: 2"
CON Roll: 14- Leap: 5"
INT Roll: 12-
EGO Roll: 12-
PER Roll 12-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disadvantages Pts
Custom Disadvantage 35
Hunted: Black Paladin 11- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish) 20
Hunted: Dark Seraph 8- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish) 15
Hunted: Anubis 8- (Mo Pow, Mildly Punish) 10
Hunted: Morningstar 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish) 5
Distinctive Features: Mystical Aura (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses) 10
Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing (Very Common, Strong) [Notes: Does not apply to unholy creatures/beings] 20
Psychological Limitation: Code of Chivalry (Very Common, Strong) 20
Physical Limitation: Chaste (Frequently, Greatly Impairing) 15

XP
0 Base Points : 200
Disads Total + 150
Experience Spent + 0
Total Cost = 349


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pts. Power/Skill/Perk/Talent END
Helmet of Salvation
2 1) Sight Group Flash Defense (4 points) (4 Active Points); OAF (-1) 0
2 2) Hearing Group Flash Defense (4 points) (4 Active Points); OAF (-1) 0
24 Breastplate of Righteousness: Armor (12 PD/12 ED) (36 Active Points); OIF (Magic Armor; -1/2) 0
23 Flight 15", x4 Noncombat (35 Active Points); OIF (Armor; -1/2) 3
10 Shape Shift ( Group), Instant Change 1
5 Iron Will: Mental Defense (8 points total) 0
7 Power Defense (7 points) 0
25 Sword of the Spirit: Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); OAF (-1)
5u 1) Energy Blast 10d6 (50 Active Points) 5
2u 2) Flat of the blade: Hand-To-Hand Attack +5d6, Penetrating (+1/2) (37 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 4
4u 3) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (3d6 w/STR), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (45 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4) 4
9 Demonbane magic: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); OAF (Sword; -1), Custom Modifier (Only vs. Magical and Evil creatures; -1/2), Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4) 0
28 Shield of Faith: Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); all slots OIF (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4)
3u 1) Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Target (50 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4) 0
1u 2) Armor (6 PD/6 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (22 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4) 0


6 +2 with any three maneuvers or a tight group of attacks
3 Deduction 12-
3 KS: Code of Chivalry 12-
0 Language: English (completely fluent) (3 Active Points)
2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)
3 Paramedics 12-


37 Danger Sense (general area, any danger, Function as a Sense) 12-


150 : Powers Cost
54 + Skills Cost
145 + Characteristics Cost
349 = Total Cost

[digitalcal]

Interesting post Katherine! My current campaign is set in post-911 New York, and the characters are currently dealing with both sides of the modern Christianity issue. On one hand they are up against a militant organization ala Chris Claremont's "Stryker Crusade" (God Loves/Man Kills) that wants them all dead, and on the other are recieving help & information from a Vatican organiztion. This has been a wonderful source of conflict and role-playing opportunity for the players, and they deal with some very real "attitudes" about religon in general and Christianity in specific.

I enjoy running adventures that allow the players a chance to really '"get into" their character's heads, and have found this to be a great tool for elevating the level of play.

Personally, I feel that as something designed for the mass market, most comics soft-pedal religon (unless they need a useful fanatic to move the plot along). Unfortunately, this only presents the "bad" side of religon - but the publishers are going with what sells.

One exception was the character of "Jelene" from Marvel's old "Strikeforce Morituri" comic. She maintained her faith while undergoing some pretty radical stuff. It was a refreshing break from the stereotype, as she quietly did her thing, practiced her faith and never went "ballistic" on anyone.

I have no issue -w- religon being dealt with in the game, its a part of life - even in "fictional life".

[Acroyear]

Does anyone know where I can get more information on this team?

The link doesn't seem to list any powers for the Rapture.

I can't connect the names to the powers off the top of my head but they had:

Sligshot guy (super pellets. Might have charged them up like X-Gambit).
4 armed beast guy (strong, agile, etc)
Earth Manipulator
Darkness Manipulator (possibly "abyss" powers)

I forget the other two. All my books are in storage or I'd offer more. They all had the "supernature" package, of course. Immortal. Regeneration (sometimes slow). Ectoplasmic costumes. "Spooky" distinctive features.

I bet Proditor can fill in the gaps.