Harbinger Poll

[nexus]

This has gotten plenty heated and seems to be reaching a stalemate. I've given my opinion clearly I think so I will bow out. Thanks for the discussion. It did help me clarify my thoughts on the matter.

[Eosin]

And you still haven't answere my question about if you have to constantly make excuses why the HOJ isn't there, why bother taking up space with him at all?

My answer is that no one man can be everywhere. Why make excuses? He is what he is and the overwhelming majority of people like him per the poll.

I can understand if your DM bites it and beats him over your head constantly why you would fear uberpowerful characters in your game but mine (Edsell) fortunately does not possess this trait.

HoJ works well and in Hudson City Blues he worked exactly as intended. MOST of us (that is those who buy Hero books) want to see him and I think that the fiscal reality of the situation is that while you have every right to dislike the HoJ - you will have to take him with a lump of sugar.

[nexus]

My answer is that no one man can be everywhere. Why make excuses? He is what he is and the overwhelming majority of people like him per the poll.

I can understand if your DM bites it and beats him over your head constantly why you would fear uberpowerful characters in your game but mine (Edsell) fortunately does not possess this trait.

HoJ works well and in Hudson City Blues he worked exactly as intended. MOST of us (that is those who buy Hero books) want to see him and I think that the fiscal reality of the situation is that while you have every right to dislike the HoJ - you will have to take him with a lump of sugar.

The "overwhelming majority" of people that come to this forum, voted in this poll, etc. Not a precise or scientific sampling of all Hero players. For that matter, I know about 20 or so Hero players that feel about the same I do about HOJ and they never come here, so I wouldn't get the impression that there are screaming mobs shouting the HOJ's return.

[Eosin]

I've played in 6 Star Wars campaigns. 3 during the movie period, 2 afterward, 1 during the Clone wars. 2 of those featured Jedi as PCs. In none of them did Mace or Yoda make an appearance or were mentioned even in passing. I think in one Yoda was dead, but I'm not sure. In my experience, that has been pretty much the standard. The Galaxy is a very big place. Lots of room to move around without bumping into uber characters. Hudson City is not nearly so big.

Quick question if you will - "During the movie period" Are you are referring to the Originals? My intent was to illustrate that during the Rise of the Empire (meaning the current movies) Jedi PCs would be intimate with Yoda. I don't disagree with them not knowing Yoda or Mace circa the Originals or later but then they are dead for most of that period.

SW games also generally play in some era other than the Original trilogy in my experience sionce there are only 3 cannon Jedi characters alive. Players want to be Jedi, in my subjective experience, and that means that they generally dislike playing in the Original Trilogy.

[Eosin]

The "overwhelming majority" of people that come to this forum, voted in this poll, etc. Not a precise or scientific sampling of all Hero players. For that matter, I know about 20 or so Hero players that feel about the same I do about HOJ and they never come here, so I wouldn't get the impression that there are screaming mobs shouting the HOJ's return.

Nor would your twenty friends constitue a mandate to remove him. We can only go by what we see and IMO the Hero Forum is probably a vague representation of Hero PURCHASERS, not exact to be sure but at least as represenitive as Congress.

[nexus]

Nor would your twenty friends constitue a mandate to remove him. We can only go by what we see and IMO the Hero Forum is probably a vague representation of Hero PURCHASERS, not exact to be sure but at least as represenitive as Congress.

My point was, I wouldn't assume "victory" because of an informal poll on a website. There are a great deal of Hero purchasers that don't come to this forum. There are allot of people that come to this forum that didn't vote on this poll.

To answer your question, the Star Wars games I was referring as during the movies were set during the original trilogy. I should have been clear on that, sorry.

[NightStick]

Ya Know, All that I got out of this thread was that Steve has pretty well done his job by getting us all (albeit a sampling) to discuss what else......
His game.
Any product out there can not be "FANTASTIC" for every one who buys into it. The best that it could hope for, would be that we all discuss ways that we adapt it to meet our needs. This means that for some of us, it would be a total waste, while others would see it as the saving grace - or crutch.
I am not a GM, nor do I aspire to be one, but I appreciate my friends who are GM's that adapt the tools that are available to facilitate an enjoyable slide down the campaign trail.

Getting back to direct words on this thread (rather than generalities & subtleties), IMO, the HoJ is a tool that when used properly, enhances the entire HC experience.

I bow to Steve

[KA.]

You know, we could actually resolve two somewhat acrimonious threads at the same time.

Why haven't Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes taken over the world?

The Harbinger of Justice!

He really is the "Bat God" of the Champions Universe.

Sure, he is tough on street crime in Hudson City, but no one knows what he does the rest of the time.

He is the one tracking down the last artifact that Takofanes needs to open the Gateway of Doom!

He is the one who prevents Dr. D from getting the sample of Upsidaisium that he needs to complete his latest world-domination sceme!

That's why he doesn't step on the Dark Champions characters' toes all the time, or butt into every major case, he is too busy elsewhere, maintaining the balance between the Uber-villains and the 350-point Heroes!

Just a suggestion (and mostly kidding )

KA.

[ThothAmon]

HoJ is an example of what we call a 'munchkin' character...

...i.e. the kind of setting/rules exploitative PC that someone brings to a game session claiming that "he is built on legitimate XP"...

...and as soon as you see the character sheet you think:

(A) this guy is a sad powergamer
(B) what kind of halfwit campaign logic led to this abortion
(C) his GM was a useless cretin
(D) all of the above

The HoJ as written in 4th edition Dark Champions serves as a prime example of what not to do when playing/GMing the Hero system. It was a sad thing to see a well written genre-specific book effectively spoiled by devoting space to a character that was so contrary to the rest of the setting.

As ever, YMMV.