Firearm Muzzle Energy

[Kevin Rose]

I agree with most of your points. What I'm saying is that HERO is not necessarily the game for this type of realistic model. HERO is about cinematic action, including where people take knockback from pistol rounds.

Yeah, it's both a virtue and a flaw. The problem I have is that I like Hero generally, it just doesn't do real guns very well at all without lots of work in one form or another. If I'm going to run a realistic game I want to run vaguely realistic combat. It's too bad that Steve put so many pages into the worthless tables and not much into really thinking about the issues and how to fix it.

In terms of trying to fix it, I also feel that if people want to try to model the reality (vs movies) of gunfights they need understand how science thinks things work vs tales that a couple of gun writers say they have collected and like to pretend are scientific. Trying to use the data the gun writers say is important is like ancient astronomers using the Ptolemaic model of the sun and planets rotating around the earth to understand the solar system. It seemed reasonable, was useful for predictions, and as a result people spent years perfecting their nested levels of epicycles. It turns out that there are no epicycles and the actual motion of the planets is around the sun, which is pretty much the case with wound ballistics today.

[mudpyr8]

I guess my point is that I'm not sure it can be "fixed" or even if it is broken. As for the composition of DC, I think it suits a particular style of play, and does so very well, but may not be the solution you are looking for.

Options are presented in DC, and I think overall it does a very good job of representing a more realistic model of gunplay than the base rules, but at the same time is still realistic.

Your comments above indicate that it is all about hit location, as well as the expansion of the bullet. I agree. There are a number of options presented in DC that represent this. I got my idea of making rifles AP from the sidebar that said to give pistols reduced pen. That was counter intuitive to me, as it didn't solve the problem of a 5.56 round punching through a second-chance vest, something I think AP handles well.

Another option is to allow hit location shift based on the success of the shot. The option presented is 1 for 1, which in play ended up being too much, but making it 1 for 2 (shift 1 pt of location roll for 2 success), combined also with placed shots, works very well. In my game all gunshots are Body Shots (2d6+4) to represent a typical focus on center-mass of the target. Success by 4 would then allow you to shift it 2 location points. Since your average roll of a Body Shot is 11, that shifts it to the vitals. However, just blazing away, or autofire, is going to result in random shots that may not kill someone at all. It might be difficult to model the 12 bullet wounds, unless many of them were to the arms and legs, but you could conceivably get to half that many. I would also put forward that these are not common occurrences - not entirely rare either - but people get killed by gunshots all the time. Sure, a 9mm to the shoulder won't kill you, and it may not even break your collar bone (represented by an impairing wound, > than BODY/2), but to the vitals or head it most likely will.

Having run years of GURPS combat missions involving firearms, and having exceedingly fun battles, I prefer the less realistic system presented by HERO because it is less hard on the heroes, which have to endure far more combat than any NPC, and yet is still a fair representation of the issues.

[RDU Neil]

I do agree that Hero System is not built to simulate "realistic" gun combat and damage... but it does approximate it for "feel" I'd say about 75% of the time. This can create the desire in some (in me at times) to try to further refine the system to cover the 25% of the time it plays out like "Eh... that's not right!"

To me, the "feel" is more important than any kind of formula based on mathematics. That feel, in a "realistic" game is hard to pull off for two reasons (in Hero)...

One... people should realistically be fearful, or at least hesitant, to get shot at, let alone actually take a bullet, no matter how small. To simulate this in a game, that means that guns have to do enough damage to really "f-up" a character with one or two shots. If not, then you get the D&D feel of "Hey, I have 89 hit points, and a sword only does 1-8, so I just wade into combat!" That doesn't seem to be what anyone wants to simulate in Hero (or at least not on this thread.)

On the other hand, making the damage "significantly dangerous" to a character often leads to a generalization of damage (Hero's strong point, and weak point, as a system is generalizing damage... strong for a supers style campaign, but shows it's weaknesses in a low level "realistic" campaign.) You can have things like a pistol doing too much damage (on average) and a rifle doing too little damage (on average.)

This is simply a thin line to walk, and there is no right way to do it. In a game where combat is foremost and lethal, an accurate representation of this would have all characters carrying long guns of some kind, because they are much more efficient and effective and killing the enemy. Game mechanics that reflected this would push players toward totally ignoring the pistol charts, and everyone taking a FAMAS or 7.62 carbine, or whatever.

Based on what I've read above, in this thread, the amount of variables that come into a "how effective is one bullet compared to another" simply can't be handled in a generic way. A force ranking doesn't really do anything... and creating a ton of tiny power advantages and limitations on each round is simply too complex to be fun (IMO).

To this, the Hit Location chart helps provide some better feel... so you have two steps. One: Hit, roll where it hit. Two, roll generic damage within a small spread (1d6-3d6 for guns basically) and multiply based on hit location.

Not bad, really. Like I said, 75% effective for a GAME in most cases.

Can we find a simple "third step" that might get a little closer to simulating realism. A SIMPLE "third step" I'd re-emphasize.

Maybe this: After steps one & two, roll a single d6.

1-2, Flesh Wound... damage done is reduced to 1 Body and 1 Stun, and round passes through without reducing it's damage. Blow Through.

3-4, Damage as normal. No mod.

5-6, Critical Hit... Total damage multiplied by 1.5 (Both Stun and Body, which have already gone through the hit location multiple)

What this allows is this third step to have all the "crunch detail" applied to it.

Example: If a GM wishes, they can modify the Third Step Die, based on calliber. A .22 has 1-3 Flesh Wound Chance, 4-5 Normal, and only a 6 is Critical. Maybe a .22 has 1-3 Flesh Wound, 4-6 Normal, and no chance for that extra critical.

A .45 might have 1 Flesh Wound, 2-4 Normal, 5-6 Critical... whatever. The gun geeks can argue at this point... but essentially it is a simple system that allows for some consideration of size and velocity in one simple roll. Again, not perfect, but might add some "realism" without requiring an in depth knowledge of ballistics and anatomy.

You might even allow armor to effect this Third Step Die, with certain levels of armor reducing the critical number, etc.

Just an idea off the top of my head.

[Kevin Rose]

This is simply a thin line to walk, and there is no right way to do it. In a game where combat is foremost and lethal, an accurate representation of this would have all characters carrying long guns of some kind, because they are much more efficient and effective and killing the enemy. Game mechanics that reflected this would push players toward totally ignoring the pistol charts, and everyone taking a FAMAS or 7.62 carbine, or whatever.

Well, yes. Nobody with a clue voluntarily brings a pistol to a gunfight. They bring a carbine or a shotgun if they show up. It's even cleverer to do something else that day.

1-2, Flesh Wound... damage done is reduced to 1 Body and 1 Stun, and round passes through without reducing it's damage. Blow Through.

3-4, Damage as normal. No mod.

5-6, Critical Hit... Total damage multiplied by 1.5 (Both Stun and Body, which have already gone through the hit location multiple) . . .

I have been thinking about this more and decided to see how something like that worked. At the same time I'd keep base damage from pistols low due to the fact that the vast majority of people who get shot once with a pistol survive, most with no significant effects once they get out of the hospital. You either have to be unlucky or the guy shooting you has to be good to get killed with a single pistol bullet.

I'd use pistols as D3, with shifts based on a random factor, location and by how much you made the attack roll. Rifles as maybe 2D6, shotguns as 4D6 (with lots of limitations), HMGs as 4D6 and cannons starting at 5D6.

The issue with armor is that people who are wearing the appropriate body armor take effectively no damage from bullets that it can stop and gain almost no useful effect (I've seen arguments that it actually increases the severity of the wound based on statistics from Vietnam) from wearing armor that won't stop the bullet. That messes with hero in a major way.

[Havyk]

The way I dealt with 'blow through' damage is as follows. A normal handgun/assult rifle cartridge is designed to flatten inside a soft target (human), so I treat it as normal. What I change is how rounds designed to penetrate kevlar vests work. An Armor Piercing round will go completely through a soft target, so against an unarmored target such as a person, I say the round does Penetrating damage (as per the advantage), no more (but could possibly hit a target behind him). Making it unlikely you will kill a normal person with an AP round unless you hit a vital organ.
ie. An assult riffle firing a FMJ round will do 2d6 killing damge. Firing a Armor Piercing round will do the same if the target is weraing a vest, but if not will do only about 2 killing damage.

[RDU Neil]

I have been thinking about this more and decided to see how something like that worked. At the same time I'd keep base damage from pistols low due to the fact that the vast majority of people who get shot once with a pistol survive, most with no significant effects once they get out of the hospital. You either have to be unlucky or the guy shooting you has to be good to get killed with a single pistol bullet.

I'd use pistols as D3, with shifts based on a random factor, location and by how much you made the attack roll. Rifles as maybe 2D6, shotguns as 4D6 (with lots of limitations), HMGs as 4D6 and cannons starting at 5D6.

I agree, pistols would still need to be lower damage... and likely you could do something like

1-2 Blow Through
3-5 Normal
6 Critical

For all pistols (based on my rough idea above). This, with low damage to start, would certainly encourage putting multiple shots into a person to get good effect.

The issue with armor is that people who are wearing the appropriate body armor take effectively no damage from bullets that it can stop and gain almost no useful effect (I've seen arguments that it actually increases the severity of the wound based on statistics from Vietnam) from wearing armor that won't stop the bullet. That messes with hero in a major way.

Oh yeah.. the "all or nothing" concept is simply not handled by Hero at all. It is something to just accept if you are going to play the game.

My feeling though, is if you keep individual bullet damage low, then you can have armor at lower "realistic" levels for second chance vests, and the like. Larger rounds (rifle and above) will then, for all intents and purposes, effectively tear through the armor.

All of this is of course, assuming you are playing a "heroic level" game where players don't pay for equipments/guns with character points. Then you can have guns operate however feels right for your campaign. What gets untenable is having a player designs a 3d6 RKA and definining it as their 9mm Beretta... which is just a special effect for a power they pay points for. That is extreme, but the concept is the same. In a "points for equipment" campaign... you just have to go with the "generic damage" concept and live with the inconsistencies to real life. You'll be happy 60-75% of the time, and I doubt any other system would ever do better in such an open way.

The problem with Hero is that it approaches perfection in so many ways, we (many of us) feel compelled to try and push it farther, failing to realize that there is NO "perfect system" and never will be.

It's a fun intellectual exercise, though... that's for sure.

[Toadmaster]

If you want to put most of the effect into hit location you could always modify the method Behind Enemy Lines used. All hits roll on the damage table (a 2d6 roll ranging from scratch to instantly killed), this roll is modified by the weapon so a large caliber pistol has a little better chance of stopping or killing the target a rifle much better but any weapon has the chance to kill or cause minimal damage depending on the roll. A Stamina stat is also used to allow multiple lesser wounds to eventually take their toll.

Delta Force uses a similar system but is a bit more detailed (3d6) and also includes a modifier for hit location (BEL doesn't use hit locations).

I don't know how you would do this with HERO (or really even why, it doesn't fit well) but I actually think it is one of the better attempts at handling combat in a game, its quick, avoids the "I have 40 HP and a .45 only does a d6" mentality and reflects the real world freak occurances of 1 shot stops with a .22 or the 30 hits from a 9mm but still keeps coming. It also provides that hit location is very important, that most of the time a bigger weapon will be more effective and if you treat that pipsqueek .25 as a joke you probably won't do it twice. Both show up on ebay fairly often and worth a look if you are interested in a "gritty, realistic" style game.

[Captain Obvious]

One way to do this in Hero might be to have the lowest modifier (whether it's a 0 or some negative number) count as DC1, and each step up as counting as another DC.

I haven't seen Behind Enemy Lines, but this idea seems like at least a good starting point to adapt its damage system.

[RDU Neil]

If you want to put most of the effect into hit location you could always modify the method Behind Enemy Lines used. All hits roll on the damage table (a 2d6 roll ranging from scratch to instantly killed), this roll is modified by the weapon so a large caliber pistol has a little better chance of stopping or killing the target a rifle much better but any weapon has the chance to kill or cause minimal damage depending on the roll. A Stamina stat is also used to allow multiple lesser wounds to eventually take their toll.

Delta Force uses a similar system but is a bit more detailed (3d6) and also includes a modifier for hit location (BEL doesn't use hit locations).

I don't know how you would do this with HERO (or really even why, it doesn't fit well) but I actually think it is one of the better attempts at handling combat in a game, its quick, avoids the "I have 40 HP and a .45 only does a d6" mentality and reflects the real world freak occurances of 1 shot stops with a .22 or the 30 hits from a 9mm but still keeps coming. It also provides that hit location is very important, that most of the time a bigger weapon will be more effective and if you treat that pipsqueek .25 as a joke you probably won't do it twice. Both show up on ebay fairly often and worth a look if you are interested in a "gritty, realistic" style game.

Really like the sound of this for Heroic level... "realistic" type games. Might be somewhat adaptable to Hero. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to round up a copy.

[Toadmaster]

Really like the sound of this for Heroic level... "realistic" type games. Might be somewhat adaptable to Hero. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to round up a copy.

Just be careful that you get a complete set (all three books) occasionally I see people selling the books individually (each for the price the whole set usually goes for). Behind Enemy Lines is set in WW2, Delta Force is kind of like Advanced Behind Enemy Lines, since it uses many of the same concepts but is much more detailed, it is also based around modern counter terror campaigns. I found copies of both on Ebay for $10-20, occasionally less sometimes more. Both came in a box which makes that worth more than just the books. Behind Enemy Lines came out in 2 versions, you will want FASA's version.

Both games can use a some tweaking but are great for ideas and very differant from other games. Besides the effects of a hit there are also good rules for spotting, suppression fire and some good basic ideas for scenarios.

Behind Enemy Lines
Book 1 Character Generation, Book 2 Event Tables, Book 3 Missions

Delta Force
Book 1 Rules of Play, Book 2 Warbook, Book 3 Scenarios

[RDU Neil]

Just be careful that you get a complete set (all three books) occasionally I see people selling the books individually (each for the price the whole set usually goes for). Behind Enemy Lines is set in WW2, Delta Force is kind of like Advanced Behind Enemy Lines, since it uses many of the same concepts but is much more detailed, it is also based around modern counter terror campaigns. I found copies of both on Ebay for $10-20, occasionally less sometimes more. Both came in a box which makes that worth more than just the books. Behind Enemy Lines came out in 2 versions, you will want FASA's version.

Both games can use a some tweaking but are great for ideas and very differant from other games. Besides the effects of a hit there are also good rules for spotting, suppression fire and some good basic ideas for scenarios.

Behind Enemy Lines
Book 1 Character Generation, Book 2 Event Tables, Book 3 Missions

Delta Force
Book 1 Rules of Play, Book 2 Warbook, Book 3 Scenarios

Thanks muchly. (I tried giving you rep, but it said I have to "spread it around." Damn computer...)

[gewing]

just catching up with the thread:

.41 magnum is FAR more powerful than .45 acp, or even 10mm.

I've found that assessing "accurate" damage correlation between DC and any amount of gun statistics is difficult at best. GURPS does a pretty good job of representing this on many levels, but also presents a fairly lethal system for handling it.

This is what I've found works for me. Most weapons can be classified in this manner such that for a cinematic game it provides enough realism yet is easy to manage.

Pistol Rounds
tiny (5-6mm, .22) 1/2d6
v small (7-8mm,) 1d6-1
small (9mm, .38) 1d6
medium (.41, 10mm) 1d6+1
large (.45, 11mm) 1 1/2d6, +1 STUN
v large (.44 mag, .50, 12mm) 2d6, +1 STUN

high velocity (e.g. 9mm para, 357 mag) +1 DC

Rifle Rounds
All rounds are AP due to velocity
v small (3.5-5mm) 1 1/2d6
small (4.5-6.5mm, .223) 2d6
medium (6.5-8.5mm, .308, 30-06) 2d6+1, +1 STUN
large (8.5mm-10.5mm, .44, .45) 2 1/2d6, +1 STUN
v large (10.5-12.5mm, .50) 3d6, +1 STUN
huge (14.5mm) 3d6+1, +1 STUN

All "bullet proof" armor (Threat III & IV) provide one level of hardening. This means that a second chance vest (rPD 6 or 7) vs. a Rifle is still going to allow someone to die. However, a level II vest (DEF 8) is still going to offer good protection, since it's hardened, and if it has the inserts (+3 DEF) be effectively bullet proof vs. most rifle rounds.

This has worked really well for me. If you are using DC, just add AP to all rifles and hardened to level III/IV armor. Done.