New commer OCV/DCV question

**Glabutz** · Apr 3rd, '03, 10:47 PM

Hi,

I'm a newcommer here, and discovered the Hero system a few days ago, fo I was interrested in the Terran Empire, well critized in french rpg press.

I have a question that may have allready been asked, or that you'll find quite dork.

I have issues with OCV/DCV.

Mostly, I don't uderstand :

1. Why do they exist ?
The combat skills don't work the same way than the other skills, and I find it strange. I don't understand the need to use a "TAC0" like system (ok, this is not a nice thing to say, I appologize)

2. How do you "use" your combat skills ?
for 2 levels, you can do extra damages. Does it mean that you're OCV is lowered by the number of skill level you use ?

***Steve Long*** · Apr 4th, '03, 01:44 AM

Well, they exist because that's how the system has determined a character's ability to hit a target (or avoid being hit) for over 20 years, and it works really well. Why does D&D have levels, or Deadlands have a shootin' skill? They're all just design decisions inherent in the system.

Combat Skill Levels have a wide variety of uses -- increasing OCV, increasing DCV, increasing damage, for example. If you use one to increase damage, it does not decrease your OCV -- you simply can't use it simultaneously to increase your OCV.

Since some other Hero fans may have further advice, I've copied this to "HERO System Discussion" so they can reply.

Glad to hear Terran Empire has been favorably received in France, and I hope you enjoy 5E!

**Supreme** · Apr 4th, '03, 07:36 AM

I can sort of understand the question. GURPS after all has one set of rolls determined the same way. You pay for a skill, be it stealth, singing, or broadsword. An attack is simply a successful roll with that skill, made the same as all the others. Unfortunately, GURPS -in order to allow for characters who are harder to hit- allows the defender to make defensive rolls. Up to three of them for each attack, IIRC. With HERO a characters ability to hit well, and a defenders ability to avoid being hit, are all contained within one roll.

**Keneton** · Apr 5th, '03, 08:17 PM

When you get to know OCV/DCV, you will grow to like it. It is not truely comparable to TACO (or THACO) as these systems are linear. D20 is completely linear. Hero uses a bell curve. You roll 3d6 not 1d20 for example. This curve makes results more consistent. Skills use the same system per se except that the target number is sort of a success amount. For example making a skill roll by 3 is much like having an OCV 3 less than an opponents DCV. In this case both require a skill roll of 8-.

I hope this makes things more plain.

In regards to skill levels, these work as phase to phase adjustments to your OCV or DCV when used with an applicable attack form. For example a 5 point level with HTH could be used with a HTH attack, but not for or against a ranged attack. You place these levesl during your phase, generally when you commit to an attack, but there are occasions where levesl are placed prior but we do not want to confuse you yet!)

Levels can also be used to increase damage (DC's) as you noted, but this is not taken from you base CV. Base CV is adjsuted by numerous factors such as being prone or stunned, or preforming a sweep to name a few.

ecouter et repeter "Hero system is good!"

**Glabutz** · Apr 6th, '03, 07:30 AM

Well, my question seemed quite stupid, bt it is true that i'am used to system that use the same rules all along, wether it may be fiht or just normal skills.

Difference between the combat system and the "normal" system trow me back in my past (AD&D 1rst Ed rules for HTH were different from the "normal" melee fight.

So, since it looks like HS is one of the first game I found in which the designer tries and can explain his choices, that there was one.

I have an ansewer and I'm happy wuth it now

But, then, I need some clarifications : Every one has a base OCV/DCV that is Dex/3 + Bs/Ms coming from the situation, the combat option you may choose.
.
Then you have your weapon/melee level, which you can use to :
- raise your OCV or
- raise your damage or
- raise you DCV

With a 5 skill level, you mai : have a +1 OCV, then a +1 DC and a +2 DCV.

Am I right ?

Then, you don't need or don't have any dodge skill ?

Or is it possible to developp a dodge skill ?

Yes, I am really new in it, even if I try to get everything I can for this game at the moment...

Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

**Trebuchet** · Apr 6th, '03, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Glabutz
Then you have your weapon/melee level, which you can use to :
- raise your OCV or
- raise your damage or
- raise you DCV

With a 5 skill level, you mai : have a +1 OCV, then a +1 DC and a +2 DCV.

Am I right ?

Correct, but not simultaneously. Of course, if you have several 5 point combat levels you may assign them as you see fit each Phase. My character with two levels in Hand-to-Hand combat often splits them +1 OCV/+1 DCV.

Then, you don't need or don't have any dodge skill ?

Or is it possible to developp a dodge skill ?

There is a free basic Dodge maneuver which gives a +3 bonus to Defensive Combat Value, and which any character may use. Characters with martial arts may purchase the superior Martial Dodge manuever which provides a +5 to DCV.

Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

So far there is no specific campaign book which covers cyberpunk, but there is plenty of cyberpunk information in Star Hero. Star Hero is really "Science Fiction Hero".

And welcome to Hero.

**Jhamin** · Apr 6th, '03, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Glabutz
Difference between the combat system and the "normal" system trow me back in my past (AD&D 1rst Ed rules for HTH were different from the "normal" melee fight.

Hero System is a /very/ old school game. And I mean that in a good way. 5th Edition is leagues ahead of the versions that were floating around in 1985, but alot of the internal assumptions are still there. There are rules for everything, which in my opinion is a refreshing change from more modern systems that handwave everything.

But, then, I need some clarifications : Every one has a base OCV/DCV that is Dex/3 + Bs/Ms coming from the situation, the combat option you may choose.

Correct. The standard and optional maneuvers on page 254 of the 5th Edition book (Which everyone on the forum calls FREd, long story) are the heart of your combat choices every action. The martial abilites are better, but cost points to be able to perform.
Once you get used to calculating OCV/DCV it comes very quickly. Once you get used to using these maneuvers you can get very detailed combats.

Then you have your weapon/melee level, which you can use to :
- raise your OCV or
- raise your damage or
- raise you DCV

With a 5 skill level, you mai : have a +1 OCV, then a +1 DC and a +2 DCV.

Am I right ?

If in your example you mean you have 5 skill levels then you are correct. There is some confusion because I'm not sure if you might mean a 5 /point/ skill level (which is how Trebuchet is reading it). Skill levels come in several point costs. The more expensive ones can be applied to more combat situations. This is broken down on p36.

Then, you don't need or don't have any dodge skill ?

Or is it possible to developp a dodge skill ?

Dodge is listed as one of the basic maneuvers on p254. None of the PCs in my current game would still be alive without it. Martial Dodge is even better, but it costs points for a character to buy the ability to perform it.

It should be pointed out that the number of skill levels a character has varies alot by genre. Martial arts heavy game hae chracters that have a half dozen skill levels each, but most of the published super powererd characters have 0-4 each. By buying your dex up and making liberal use of the basic maneuvers you can get buy without any skill levels at all.

There is a long-running and semi-contentious debate on these boards about which characters are better/more realistic/more appropriate: the ones with 30+ dexes and few skill levels or the ones with 15-25 dexes and lots of skill levels.

One of the things about Hero is that while there are guidelines by genre, in your game you can set the standard wherever you want. So if you like skill levels and want everyone to have a bunch, then as long as the characers in your game have the right number of skill levels relative to each other the whole thing still works. You just have to adjust prepublished characters to bring them into line with your game standards.

Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

There was a cyber hero for the 4th edition, but the fan consensus doesn't seem very positive. Some cyberwear rules are in Star Hero.
Another 4th Ed supplament that might be good is Dark Champions. It's all about violent, gun toting vigilantes with super powers fighting it out in crime-ridden back alleys. Substitute cyberwear for super powers and this might cover alot of the ground you are looking for. This one is out of print, but is due to be updated to 5th edition sometime next year.
Of course the beauty of Hero is that once you get the hang of it you can probably make up your own cyberwear rules without much difficulty.

**Glabutz** · Apr 6th, '03, 12:31 PM

If in your example you mean you have 5 skill levels then you are correct. There is some confusion because I'm not sure if you might mean a 5 /point/ skill level (which is how Trebuchet is reading it)

Yes, I wanted to say "5 skill levels", and not skill levels for 5 points.

I still havan't tried the sysem yet, and should do so in a few days. I'm just worried about understanding the rules so my players won't be mad at the change (we're playing with Silhouette (DP9's) system, that no one like

)

One more stuid question : Can you always use your fighting skill levels to increase your DCV.

Exemple : Player has 5 skill levels and uses a gun, while a NPC tries to stab him with a knife. Can the player use 2 or 3 skill levels to increase his DCV ?

And i havan't say it yet, but I'm really glad to see what kind of comunity you are. I feel welcomed even if my questions seems stupid and that it looks like I haven't read the FREd (is that right ?) enough yet.
To this moment, you'e one of the two nicest RPG community I have ever met.

Great books, great people, a priori great system. I'm happy to be here.

**Trebuchet** · Apr 6th, '03, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Glabutz
And i havan't say it yet, but I'm really glad to see what kind of comunity you are. I feel welcomed even if my questions seems stupid and that it looks like I haven't read the FREd (is that right ?) enough yet.
To this moment, you'e one of the two nicest RPG community I have ever met.

Great books, great people, a priori great system. I'm happy to be here.

Hey, where else can you go to ask questions where the game designer himself will answer your questions? Steve Long and the guys from HERO are the best.!

**Glabutz** · Apr 6th, '03, 01:23 PM

Hey, where else can you go to ask questions where the game designer himself will answer your questions?

Sometime on HM mailing list...

That's the second one

**Lord Liaden** · Apr 6th, '03, 01:28 PM

Welcome to the HERO community, Glabutz! You're in for a lot of fun.

Don't hesitate to ask questions here; we were all newbies once, and all of us are eager to help a new comrade (and show off how much we know).

For example:

Originally posted by Glabutz
Last question : is there any supplement that exist/may be developped for cyberware/ Cyberpunk, or all of it is in the Space Hero book ?

If you click on the "Free Stuff" link at the top of this page, then click on "HERO System Documents", you'll find "The HERO System Genre by Genre". This is a free 41-page PDF file which you can download. It describes several different genres of games, their main conventions and how to do them in HERO terms, one or two sample characters for each genre, and sample powers/ spells/ equipment etc. There's a section on Cyberpunk gaming, with a sample character and some prebuilt cyberware. If you're familiar with the cyberpunk genre, this plus the Fifth Edition rulebook (FREd) should be enough to start your campaign, although you'll have to build your world yourself.

There is more material available in Star HERO, plus the now out-of-print Cyber HERO genre book for the previous (4th) edition of the game system. If you have any interest in Japanese manga and anime, Michael Surbrook has written an excellent manga-style cyberpunk sourcebook for the HERO System, called Kazei 5, for sale as a downloadable electronic book in Hero Games's Online Store (the link for that is at the top of this page, too). There would probably be a lot of material there that you could use.

Hope you find something useful in all of that.

**Jhamin** · Apr 6th, '03, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Glabutz [/i]
Yes, I wanted to say "5 skill levels", and not skill levels for 5 points.

I still havan't tried the sysem yet, and should do so in a few days. I'm just worried about understanding the rules so my players won't be mad at the change (we're playing with Silhouette (DP9's) system, that no one like

)

If you are jumping in with both feet (we all did once), may I suggest you start simple. There are so many options avalible that you run the risk of bringig combat to a complete halt every action trying to figure out what to do. Hero can do almost anything, but that doesn't mean you should try in in your first game!
I would reccomend a few things:
-The first charcters you use should avoid buying abilites marked with "magnifier" or "stop sign" icons in FREd (and yes you are using that right). These are useful and good abilites, but can either be unusually complicated, or unusually powerful unless you know what you are doing.
-Run a combat or two not using any skill levels or maneuvers. Just get everyone used to calculating hit rolls and using their special abilities.
-When you are ready to use maneuvers, start with the basic ones and add optional maneuvers a couple at a time.
-Make sure charcters don't have speeds that are more than 1 point apart from each other at first. (another topic I know) This can overly penalize slow characters until you get a feel for balance.

One more stuid question : Can you always use your fighting skill levels to increase your DCV.

Exemple : Player has 5 skill levels and uses a gun, while a NPC tries to stab him with a knife. Can the player use 2 or 3 skill levels to increase his DCV ?

If your skill levels apply, you can use them at any time. If you have skill levels that apply to guns only or ranged combat then they will not help you against knife weilding enemies.
On the other hand, if you haveclose combat skill levels, or skill levels that apply to all combat, or skills in knife fighting (even if you don't have a knife, knowing how to fight with one helps you avoid them) then you can apply these.
If, for example, you have 2 levels in ranged combat and two levels with knives, you can use both at the same time, adding two to your ocv for shooting enemies across the room while adding 2 to your dcv vs. knife-weilding enemies.

Don't get too carried away with all combat skill levels, they are really useful, but if you buy a character with too many they will always hit while being unhittable in return. And in most genres, ovarall combat mastery is rare. Most charcters will have skills with their preferred weapons, or ranged combat, or close combat, but not in everything.

**Tom Carman** · Apr 7th, '03, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Jhamin
I would reccomend a few things:
-The first charcters you use should avoid buying abilites marked with "magnifier" or "stop sign" icons in FREd (and yes you are using that right).

You may be asking yourself "what 'magnifier' icon?" You're not seeing it because it isn't there: FREd uses an exclamation-point-in-triangle icon as a caution sign. In the 4th edition book, an icon of a magnifying glass was used to indicate "look closely before you allow this".

**Jhamin** · Apr 7th, '03, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Tom Carman
You may be asking yourself "what 'magnifier' icon?" You're not seeing it because it isn't there: FREd uses an exclamation-point-in-triangle icon as a caution sign. In the 4th edition book, an icon of a magnifying glass was used to indicate "look closely before you allow this".

Doh!

As you can see. Even the vets manage to get confused.

**Old Man** · Apr 7th, '03, 06:03 PM

I would second the recommendation that you start slow and low.

Grab the Skilled Normals or Competent Normals templates from p224 FREd and do a fist fight or knife fight. Just so everybody can get the hang of things.

After that you have to decide what genre you wish to play you campaign in. It all flows from there. You can always pop in here on the boards and ask for advice on ANYTHING.