Shapeshifting

[Sean Waters]

This house believes that the power 'Shapeshift' is too expensive. Discuss.

The basic reason is that it is a power with no direct effect on combat, except for the odd surprise attack bonus.

It is a power that has enormous potential to imbalance a game, but that will depend on the role playing: a GM can always rules that a lot of places have pheremonal detectors, and the player can't shift smell. The point is the usefulness of the power is in the application by the player which is not properly quantifyable across games. The power should be a warning or stop power, but cost less to purchase.

Compare images: a similar cost and far more application - in fact it could be used as a de facto shapeshift in addition to its other utility.

Compare invisibilty: more expensive, but only 10 points in most situations, with massive combat effect and equally great potential to imbalance a game.

Shapeshift is basically a SFX you pay for in most cases. You could make the power cheaper and the more difficult to run bits (like imitation) more expensive or more difficult to use (requires physical contact and extra time, for example).

[Vondy]

I won't enter into the cost effectiveness debate - as many of the factors involved are completely subjective. I'm inclined to believe its over priced (I also believe claristience purchased for each sense can be prohibitive and result in diminished returns as well), but that's more my sense of it based on my subjective experience. As such, I'll limit myself to presenting an alternative:

If we're talking about the ability to say "I can assume the form of any human" you could just purchase transformation (cosmetic), cumulative (+1/2), self only (-1/2), human forms (-0?). Other lims such as "must tough target to duplicate" or "cannot assume forms of people they have not seen" could be added for flavor as well. If you wanted the change to be essentially instant you could just buy a lot of dice (cheaply) and drop the cumulative, but I think having fewer dice and cumulative is a good simulation of a character who needs a few seconds or a moment to readjust their physical structure. Some people would argue the ability to change sex is a major transformation, but I'd let it slide in my game as cosmetic (maybe minor) - because its largely an SFX power dependent on circumstances and role play.

[Lightray]

Shapeshift is basically a SFX you pay for in most cases. You could make the power cheaper and the more difficult to run bits (like imitation) more expensive or more difficult to use (requires physical contact and extra time, for example).

Well, if the shapeshifting is a SFX, then I don't make the character buy it. If the character can grow wings, claws, etc. then he doesn't need Shapeshift -- he's already got the powers he needs.

Shapeshift is only for "I want to look like that" effects. This -- like Clairsentience, Clinging, and a few other powers -- is clearly a non-combat power. But in non-combat situations, like espionage adventures, it can be overwhelming.

I think the main problem with the cost is that it is a Sense-based Power. So if someone can become a cellular double of other people, he needs Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Radio, Unusual, etc. This seems excessive, so I just tell them to define three Sense groups (like their SFX) and use those. So they're covered for not being detected by radar or spatial awareness, even though they don't have the Radio or Unusual groups.

[Lord Liaden]

Personally I'm pretty comfortable with the cost and sense-based structure for Shape Shift. In most heroic campaigns there won't often be a need to buy coverage for all the Sense Groups, unless the GM chooses to make such SS-busters more common in his game. The way it breaks down also seems logical to me and consistent with other elements of the system, and I like its flexibility. Of course YMMV, as it should.

One thing to keep in mind, though: If comparing Shape Shift to Images or Invisibility, note that SS has no Perception Roll associated with it to see through it. The Shift is perfect unless someone has a Discriminatory sense that your SS doesn't cover.

[Rapier]

This house believes that the power 'Shapeshift' is too expensive. Discuss.

The basic reason is that it is a power with no direct effect on combat, except for the odd surprise attack bonus.

It is a power that has enormous potential to imbalance a game, but that will depend on the role playing: a GM can always rules that a lot of places have pheremonal detectors, and the player can't shift smell. The point is the usefulness of the power is in the application by the player which is not properly quantifyable across games. The power should be a warning or stop power, but cost less to purchase.

Compare images: a similar cost and far more application - in fact it could be used as a de facto shapeshift in addition to its other utility.

Compare invisibilty: more expensive, but only 10 points in most situations, with massive combat effect and equally great potential to imbalance a game.

Shapeshift is basically a SFX you pay for in most cases. You could make the power cheaper and the more difficult to run bits (like imitation) more expensive or more difficult to use (requires physical contact and extra time, for example).

Cost effective arguments are always so "heated." They also always come down to subjective experience. I personally, don't believe that ShapeShift is too expensive.

I also think you are doing yourself, your players and Hero a disservice to try and quantify everything in terms of Combat Effectiveness. If your games are primarily arena combat or somehow center around dishing out the smackdown, then yes, Shapeshift doesn't give you much bang for your buck. Actually, let me stop and apologise for the sentence above. I didn't mean to imply you are some kind of schlub. There is nothing wrong, at all, with running a primarily combat game. My games have quite a bit of roleplaying and sometimes we can go a couple games without any combat.

Shapeshift is a completely separate power from images or anything else. Images can make you look like Dan Rather. However, an observant person (or depending on SFX, a mechanical device like a camera) or anyone with any kind of time to do an examination (say during interaction at a dinner party) can see that you are not, in fact, Dan Rather.

While, a Transform could produce the effect (changing from Male/Female or changing your outward shape to another human), I would not allow it since you are using Transform to duplicate another power (Shapeshift).

Shapeshift would actually allow you to become, outwardly, Dan Rather (depending on how it was purchased, you could even pass a thorough inspection including bloodwork and fingerprints). This is a very powerful ability. I have a character in my current Hero campaign that has Shapeshift and he is always the point man when lurking around warehouses or things (usually in the shape of a guard or scientist etc). He is a VITAL member of the team and has saved the team and made things much easier on a number of occassions.

I guess, I more strictly enforce the intent of the power. I would not allow someone to buy Images (Touch, Hearing, Sight) Self-Only (only to appear as another human). I would demand that they, instead, buy Shapeshift (unless there was a REALLY REALLY good reason why Images was the right power for the concept).

[Vondy]

While, a Transform could produce the effect (changing from Male/Female or changing your outward shape to another human), I would not allow it since you are using Transform to duplicate another power (Shapeshift).

My feeling has always been, though it doesn't really bother me, that because transform exists, and has broader applications than shapeshift due to greater abstraction, that shapeshift is actually redundant within the system. Its a nice shorthand for something you can do by tailoring another - more abstract - power, but then, the cost-benefit ratio should be comprable to what you can get in terms of effect with a transform tailored to function as shapeshift. If regeneration was removed and made a part of the greater (more abstract) healing power, why shouldn't shapeshift be handled the same way? I'm pretty much just thinking out loud here, but it seems, if we're going streamline some powers, why not others?

[Sean Waters]

I'd need to check this but I'm pretty sure you'll find you can not use transform on yourself. That prevents you doing that quick fix.

Images presents an 'image' that can be detected as 'false' by a PER roll. So does shapeshift, even with the 'imitation' adder, and it is ranged, can fill a hex, etc ect for basically the same cost as shapeshift. You can hardly say to someone who has images that they can not create an image of Dan Rather over themselves if they can do so over there (points to corner).

Completely with you on the 'combat is not the be all, let alone the end all' point, but I was using the comparison to invisibilty - also an espionage game killer. It is only slightly more expensive and DOES have huge combat benefits. It is also a sense affecting power built on a similar pricing structure. Recently played a game against some 'Super Skrull' clones. Boy, is invisibilty a huge advantage.

[zornwil]

I don't have the books in front of me, but I don't think Shape Shift was over-priced in 4th and IIRC in 5th the changes mainly revolve around buying additional senses as compared to how it was done before, but the cost difference from 4th to 5th overall, for a broad Shape Shift ability, is not that greatly increased (I might be wrong). I disagree with the direction in 5th from a points discussion but not in terms of the ideas they gave. I think for the price, SS should be more open-ended than the stricter definition of being apparent to 3 senses only and so on.

[Hyper-Man]

Early in the thread it was mentioned that Shapeshift was not as combat effective as Invisibility. Combat-wise this is true. Shapeshift if used properly with other skills and possibly powers can be used in a variety of non-combat ways, like to frame heroes quite effectively. See the X-Men movies for good examples.

It has also been stated that the construction method for Shapeshift is a bit redundant. This idea has merit.

• Images and #Change Environment : : Invisibility, Shapeshift and even *Darkness
• Damage Reduction : : Desolidification (at least in stopping ALL damage)
• Mind Control and/or Telepathy : : Minor/Major Transform
• AVLD : : NND (yes, I know these are just 'Advantages' but they do fit with the argument)

On the left we have powers that have a gradual effect and never provide 100% effect (# in a broader sense at least). On the right we have powers that all provide absolute effects that are only countered if you have something akin to a rare NND defense to the particular effect. *I also think it seems a bit arbritary that the rules specifically state that Images cannot create Darkness types of effects.

[Vondy]

I'd need to check this but I'm pretty sure you'll find you can not use transform on yourself. That prevents you doing that quick fix.

Regeneration, as currently written violates the basic tenets of healing, but is presented as an exception to the general rule. Conceptually Shapeshift is simply a narrow "Self Only" transform presented as a separate power. I continue to fail to see why it exists on its own at all. And if the GM okays it there's no reason not to do it, even if, technically, transform isn't self-targeting (which seems pretty arbitrary to me).

[Lord Liaden]

I'd need to check this but I'm pretty sure you'll find you can not use transform on yourself. That prevents you doing that quick fix.

That is the official ruling. Of course people are free to change that for their own games.

Images presents an 'image' that can be detected as 'false' by a PER roll. So does shapeshift, even with the 'imitation' adder, and it is ranged, can fill a hex, etc ect for basically the same cost as shapeshift. You can hardly say to someone who has images that they can not create an image of Dan Rather over themselves if they can do so over there (points to corner).

Certainly Images can be used on the possessor of the Power; I've seen official builds that do this. As I indicated in my previous post, though, as far as I can tell from the rulebook and the FAQ there is no perception roll to "see through" Shape Shift, except in the case of using Disguise (when it's a standard Skill vs. Skill contest), or the Imitation Adder (and then implicitly only for people who know the character well, and then at a significant penalty). That's a big edge that SS has over Images.

[TheEmerged]

I like the current system with Shapeshift -- but feel it needs one fix. There should be a base cost to affect not only the Touch Sense but all "ranged touch" powers like Radar and Sonar as well.

[zornwil]

I like the current system with Shapeshift -- but feel it needs one fix. There should be a base cost to affect not only the Touch Sense but all "ranged touch" powers like Radar and Sonar as well.

Let me introduce you to 4th edition...

(okay, sorry, I'll get that snarkiness under control someday...)

[Sean Waters]

Regeneration, as currently written violates the basic tenets of healing, but is presented as an exception to the general rule. Conceptually Shapeshift is simply a narrow "Self Only" transform presented as a separate power. I continue to fail to see why it exists on its own at all. And if the GM okays it there's no reason not to do it, even if, technically, transform isn't self-targeting (which seems pretty arbitrary to me).

With you in principle, but, and I have checked now, it does say specifically that you can not be the/a target. Good argument that it is too expensive, though...

[Sean Waters]

Let me introduce you to 4th edition...

(okay, sorry, I'll get that snarkiness under control someday...)

No, but that is it: it got more expensive for no good reason I can see.