Proper use of Hardened & Defenses

[Teflon Billy]

I'm a little unsure of when and where Hardened is needed to be effective for Defense and where it needs to be applied to give proper coverage. As well as which Damage Reductions are needed to do what I want.

Suppose we have a character who has:

20 PD 20 rPD

Do I need to purchase both?

Physical Damage Reduction, 25%
and
Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%

To properly have full Physical Damage Reduction or is the Resistant form sufficient?

With regards to Hardened:

To have completely hardened PD, I need to apply Hardened to both my PD and rPD seperatly, right?

20 PD (1/4 Hardened)
20 rPD (1/4 Hardened)

But is there a need to apply Hardened to the Damage Reduction?
Is there any possible reason for Hardened to be applied to Damage Reduction?

TB

[Christougher]

To be clear, the character has 20 base PD, plus 20 Resistant as from Armor, for a total of 40 PD, 20 resistant, correct? (Assuming it is...)

No, you need not purchase both non- and resistant damage reduction. Resistant damage reduction incorporates everything non-resistant does. The only thing it adds is reducing the body that gets past resistant defenses. If this character took 24 body killing, he would take 4 body, 3 if he had the resistant DR.

Yes, you would need to buy both your PD and Armor hardened to get a total of 40 hardened defenses. There is no need and no benefit to Hardening damage reduction as the advantages that Hardening counters have no effect on damage reduction.

[Teflon Billy]

To be clear, the character has 20 base PD, plus 20 Resistant as from Armor, for a total of 40 PD, 20 resistant, correct? (Assuming it is...)

No, you need not purchase both non- and resistant damage reduction. Resistant damage reduction incorporates everything non-resistant does. The only thing it adds is reducing the body that gets past resistant defenses. If this character took 24 body killing, he would take 4 body, 3 if he had the resistant DR.

Yes, you would need to buy both your PD and Armor hardened to get a total of 40 hardened defenses. There is no need and no benefit to Hardening damage reduction as the advantages that Hardening counters have no effect on damage reduction.

No, no armor.

His natural PD is 20, 20 of which is made resistant. I may have missused terminology.

Which goes back to my question, do you have to buy Hardened on both to cover any eventuality?

Two attacks:

20 Armor Piercing STUN
or
20 Penetrating BODY

As I read it, having Hardened applied to the 20 PD as a naked advantage would protect me fully against the STUN attack, but not against the BODY attack.

But if I applied Hardened to the 20 rPD it would protect me fully against the BODY attack, but would I be protected fully from the STUN attack, since my non-resistant PD is not Hardened?

Would just having Hardened applied to one or the other cover both attacks, or would I still need to have Hardened applied to both?

TB

[Zeropoint]

According to page 77 of Hero System 5th Edition, the Hardened advantage will counteract Armor Piercing, Penertrating, and Indirect--one at a time. If you have a single level of Hardened, you need to specifiy which advantage is nullified in the event that you are hit with an Armor Piercing and Penertrating, Armor Piercing and Indirect, or Penetrating and Indirect attack.

If you have two levels of Hardened on your defenses, then you can nullify any two at once.

Also note that Hardened, Armor Piercing and Penetrating can all be bought multiple times for the same power, leading to a potential arms race.

Zeropoint

[Metaphysician]

I think you might be misunderstanding how you purchase defense.

You purchase normal Defense in some form. Then you can pay to make some or all of it resistant.

A character does not have 20PD/20rPD. He can have 20rPD, or perhaps 20PD + 20rPD, but you don't have to purchase your defense twice; you purchase it once, than pay to make it resistant.

[Rapier]

No, no armor.

His natural PD is 20, 20 of which is made resistant. I may have missused terminology.

Which goes back to my question, do you have to buy Hardened on both to cover any eventuality?

Two attacks:

20 Armor Piercing STUN
or
20 Penetrating BODY

As I read it, having Hardened applied to the 20 PD as a naked advantage would protect me fully against the STUN attack, but not against the BODY attack.

But if I applied Hardened to the 20 rPD it would protect me fully against the BODY attack, but would I be protected fully from the STUN attack, since my non-resistant PD is not Hardened?

Would just having Hardened applied to one or the other cover both attacks, or would I still need to have Hardened applied to both?

TB

This is a difficult concept for newer players. Someone recently posted a VERY nice reference, but I can't recall where.

If Attack is Killing Attack (and character has a minimum of 1 resistant DEF):
rPD or rED protects against the BODY of the attack
Total DEF (PD or ED) protects against the STUN of the attack

If Attack is Killing Attack (and character has no resistant DEF):
Character takes ALL BODY and ALL STUN

Non-Killing Attacks
Total DEF protects against BODY and STUN

In your case your have 20 rPD and a total of 20 DEF vs Physical.

Hardened will only stop the affects of an AP attack. If the character is attacked by an attack that is not AP hardened has no effect.

[Teflon Billy]

According to page 77 of Hero System 5th Edition, the Hardened advantage will counteract Armor Piercing, Penertrating, and Indirect--one at a time. If you have a single level of Hardened, you need to specifiy which advantage is nullified in the event that you are hit with an Armor Piercing and Penertrating, Armor Piercing and Indirect, or Penetrating and Indirect attack.

If you have two levels of Hardened on your defenses, then you can nullify any two at once.

Also note that Hardened, Armor Piercing and Penetrating can all be bought multiple times for the same power, leading to a potential arms race.

Zeropoint

This wasn't what I was refering to at all. I understand the concept of multiple levels of Hardened or counteracting multiple defense penetrating advantages.

I think you might be misunderstanding how you purchase defense.

You purchase normal Defense in some form. Then you can pay to make some or all of it resistant.

A character does not have 20PD/20rPD. He can have 20rPD, or perhaps 20PD + 20rPD, but you don't have to purchase your defense twice; you purchase it once, than pay to make it resistant.

Then can you please tell me, which power purchase I have to buy Hardened for?

When I buy up my PD, do I need to add Hardened as a naked advantage?

OR

When I buy rPD do I need to add Hardened?

These are two very distinct purchases which I can apply the Hardened Advantage to, which is it?

And back to my example:

In my adventuring with my character Bulletproof Tony.
Again, he has IN TOTAL 20 PD, ALL OF WHICH is resistant PD. Two seperate purchases. Now on to the example.

I am attacked by:

20 Armor Piercing STUN

If I have not added Hardened to my regular PD but I have it added as an advantage to my rPD, will I suffer 10 STUN or 0 STUN?

20 Armor Piercing BODY

If I have added Hardened to my regular PD but not to my rPD will I suffer 10 BODY or 0 BODY (and whatever amount of STUN, ignore it for the moment)?

TB

[Teflon Billy]

Here are the three possible configurations of what I'm talking about:


Bulletproof Tony 1

<TABLE cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Val </TD><TD>Char </TD><TD>Cost</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>STR</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>DEX</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>CON</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>BODY</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>EGO</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>PRE</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>COM</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>PD</TD><TD>18</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2 </TD><TD>ED</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2 </TD><TD>SPD</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>4 </TD><TD>REC</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>END</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>STUN</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>6" </TD><TD>RUN</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2" </TD><TD>SWIM</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2" </TD><TD>LEAP</TD><TD>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Characteristics Cost: 18

<TABLE cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Cost </TD><TD>Power</TD><TD align=right>END</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>5 </TD><TD>Hardened (+1/4) (5 Active Points) applied to PD </TD><TD vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>12 </TD><TD>Damage Resistance (20 PD), Hardened (+1/4) (12 Active Points) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Powers Cost: 17

Bulletproof Tony 2

<TABLE cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Val </TD><TD>Char </TD><TD>Cost</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>STR</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>DEX</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>CON</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>BODY</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>EGO</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>PRE</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>COM</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>PD</TD><TD>18</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2 </TD><TD>ED</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2 </TD><TD>SPD</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>4 </TD><TD>REC</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>END</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>STUN</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>6" </TD><TD>RUN</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2" </TD><TD>SWIM</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2" </TD><TD>LEAP</TD><TD>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Characteristics Cost: 18

<TABLE cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Cost </TD><TD>Power</TD><TD align=right>END</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>5 </TD><TD>Hardened (+1/4) (5 Active Points) applied to PD </TD><TD vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>10 </TD><TD>Damage Resistance (20 PD), (10 Active Points) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Powers Cost: 15

Bulletproof Tony 3

<TABLE cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Val </TD><TD>Char </TD><TD>Cost</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>STR</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>DEX</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>CON</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>BODY</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>INT</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>EGO</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>PRE</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>10 </TD><TD>COM</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>PD</TD><TD>18</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2 </TD><TD>ED</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2 </TD><TD>SPD</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>4 </TD><TD>REC</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>END</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>20 </TD><TD>STUN</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>6" </TD><TD>RUN</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2" </TD><TD>SWIM</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2" </TD><TD>LEAP</TD><TD>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Characteristics Cost: 18

<TABLE cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Cost </TD><TD>Power</TD><TD align=right>END</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right> </TD><TD></TD><TD vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right>12 </TD><TD>Damage Resistance (20 PD), Hardened (+1/4) (12 Active Points) </TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Powers Cost: 17

So, what are the mechanical differences between these characters?

TB

[Rapier]

Check out my post above.

The rPD will protect against STUN from a killing attack since you have some resistant defence. It doesn't make much sense to purchase hardened for just your PD. Purchase it for the rPD instead (Tony 3).

Besides it would be hard to concept why the PD would be hardened and not the rPD since you purchased Damage Resistance (which makes the defences one and the same).

[Teflon Billy]

Check out my post above.

The rPD will protect against STUN from a killing attack since you have some resistant defence. It doesn't make much sense to purchase hardened for just your PD. Purchase it for the rPD instead (Tony 3).

Besides it would be hard to concept why the PD would be hardened and not the rPD since you purchased Damage Resistance (which makes the defences one and the same).

Except your post still doesn't answer my question.

If Tony DOES NOT have hardened on his PD but on his rPD only, what happens if he gets hit with an AP STUN?

TB

[Rapier]

Except your post still doesn't answer my question.

If Tony DOES NOT have hardened on his PD but on his rPD only, what happens if he gets hit with an AP STUN?

TB

Actually, I did.

rPD protects against the STUN of a killing attack.

Since the rPD is hardened it will neutralise one level of AP, Indirect or Penetrating.

[Teflon Billy]

Actually, I did.

rPD protects against the STUN of a killing attack.

Since the rPD is hardened it will neutralise one level of AP, Indirect or Penetrating.

Please read what I said again. I've been fairly careful in the examples I use.

The attack is an Armor Piercing STUN attack, not a KA.

Therefore, unless I've missed something, the rPD would not protect the character at all, ergo, the Hardened applied to the rPD but not the PD would do nothing to cancel the AP on the STUN, meaning the character would be hit with 10 STUN instead of 0 STUN.

Or am I wrong? (Which is the whole point of my asking, as I'm unsure that I needed to buy Hardened on both.)

TB

[Rapier]

Please read what I said again. I've been fairly careful in the examples I use.

The attack is an Armor Piercing STUN attack, not a KA.

Therefore, unless I've missed something, the rPD would not protect the character at all, ergo, the Hardened applied to the rPD but not the PD would do nothing to cancel the AP on the STUN, meaning the character would be hit with 10 STUN instead of 0 STUN.

Or am I wrong? (Which is the whole point of my asking, as I'm unsure that I needed to buy Hardened on both.)

As I stated above, both rPD and PD will protect against the STUN of ANY attack (with the caveat that you must have at least 1rPD to get any effect of DEF against the STUN of a killing attack).

The only difference between rPD and PD is that one (rPD) is the only thing that will protect against the BODY of a Killing Attack.

You have 20rPD Hardened. This will provide 20 DEF against ANY attack (for both BODY and STUN), and will neutralise one level of AP, Penetrating or Indirect.

[Rapier]

Acutally, I have to make a small correction. I believed that HD would apply the hardened cost to the underlying PD. It appears as if it does not. There is a setting on Characteristics bought as Powers that allows you to apply the modifier to the base characteristic, apparently Damage Resistance does not have that ability.

That being the case, you must purchase the hardened (separately) for both the PD and rPD to get any effect.

[Metaphysician]

Yes, AFAIK, you *have* to purchase Hardened for both resistant and nonresistant components of defense.