Intelligent Question?

[Hyper-Man]

I hope....

Are Bricks defenses too high in comparison to their ability to inflict damage?

One of the most common type of character writeups on the boards are Bricks. Many have submitted Superman or Superman-esq characters. One thing that seems to always be a little out of balance on these characters IMO is that their defenses are far higher than their attacks.

Before everyone goes nuts saying that would make bricks too powerfull let me explain. Usually, iregardless of the origin of powers, two bricks of similar power level in the comics are usually protrayed as having the same ability to injure one another as two normals. That should equate to a haymaker that lands having the ability to at least Stun if not outright Knockout the opponent as well as ocasionally delivering a point or two of body damage in the process. This is very rarely the case. The best example of what I am talking about is the many fights between Superman and the Kryptonian villains in Superman II but Thor vs. Hercules, Captain Marvel vs. Black Adam, Martian Manhunter vs. Grey Martians etc... . In most of these fights if one character ever gets even the slightest advantage (in either power or fighting skill) he can usually end the fight easily with a 'knock-out' blow of some sort.

I know that this may be a pipe dream since the whole point of the HERO system rules is to allow for combats that take some time for dramatic purposes but I figured it is as worthy a topic as any to discuss.

[jackalope]

Before everyone goes nuts saying that would make bricks too powerfull let me explain. Usually, iregardless of the origin of powers, two bricks of similar power level in the comics are usually protrayed as having the same ability to injure one another as two normals. That should equate to a haymaker that lands having the ability to at least Stun if not outright Knockout the opponent as well as ocasionally delivering a point or two of body damage in the process.

That was the stoopidest question EVAR!!!!

Oh, wait, no it wasn't. Good question actually, and good point (quoted).

I do think most of the bricks I see on these boards, and most of the published bricks, are a bit too hard to hurt. I think the defense of all the published characters are too high for the AP limits given on attack powers.

[Trebuchet]

I generally think defenses should be proportional and appropriate to the archetype. Martial artists and speedsters should take one or two campaign-average hits to Stun or KO; EBs and demi-bricks two or three hits, and bricks three or more. Again, since in many if not most campaigns bricks deal out the most damage (and are thus generally dishing out well over campaign average) that probably equates to two roughly equal bricks affecting each other much like two ordinary joes duking it out. Our team's brick Silhouette hits for 50% more damage (15d6 vs. 10d6) than my MA Zl'f, and can ignore totally attacks that would Stun Zl'f (9d6).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Well, let's say an average full-on Brick in a 350 supers campaign has a 70 STR. That would give him an 18d6 Haymaker.

In order for him to take a couple points of BODY damage from an 18d6 attack, he would need to have a 16 PD. An 18d6 Haymaker would average 63 STUN as well, so he'd take 47 STUN. Assuming an average Brick CON in the 28-38 range, that would be plenty enough to Stun him.

But at this point, how do you scale other superhero archetypes appropriately? If a full superpowered Brick only has a PD of 16, what does a Martial Artist or Speedster have? 8 or 9? In that range, they'd never survive superpowered combat.

[Rapier]

Actually, this just occured to me. In my head, the brick is always the heavy hitter. The guy that dishes out the most damage. However, I don't think that is always the case. Oh sure, we've had a couple of REALLY heavy bricks that crush battleships with their teeth, but for the most part bricks do about the same amount of damage as the average Energy Projector.

I think part of this might be left over to when we had AP limits. Over time the bricks have gotten stronger and the Energy Projectors have become more versatile, and the MAs have gotten more levels but lower damage.

On the flip side, the bricks almost across the board have MUCH higher DEF than everyone else. How odd.

Curious. You never know what is going to trigger one of these odd thoughts, do ya?

[Zed-F]

Bricks tend to have higher DEF because they tend to be slower, and thus need to be able to take hits better to ensure they can actually take the relatively few actions they get and not be stunned all the time.

[Gary]

It's not just defenses. A typical brick would be harder to knock out than other archetypes even if everything else is equal, simply because the brick has gobs of extra Rec and Stun compared to everyone else.

[zornwil]

Archetype police have arrived!

Let's be clear here...(for Champions)

STR 40+ - as high as the "campaign standards" allow (that's important - that means it's up to the GM...the STR should be capped at the DC cap on Attack Powers)

If we look at the Generator (pages 81+) we see the ranges as:

Possible Base Chars:
STR +8
DEX +10/+13
CON +8/+10
BOD +3/+5
...
PD +5/+8
ED +5/+6
SPD +2.7/+2
REC +4/+1
STUN 0/+6

Possible Primary Powers:

Adds usually +60 STR (except Projector who has +40 STR with no END)
Hardened Defenses run 7-24 PD, 7-24 ED
Some KB resistance typically, 2"-lots if Density Increase

Possible Secondary may add +5-9 PD/ED (unlikely to be higher end if already has decent PD/ED from Dam Res as that may be redundant), movement from 10"-20" depending

Likely skill level adds run in the +6 HTH or Ranged at the high end, but more likely it's a significantly smaller number.

[Trebuchet]

Actually, this just occured to me. In my head, the brick is always the heavy hitter. The guy that dishes out the most damage. However, I don't think that is always the case. Oh sure, we've had a couple of REALLY heavy bricks that crush battleships with their teeth, but for the most part bricks do about the same amount of damage as the average Energy Projector.

You're 100% correct about EBs often having brick-level attacks (and occasionally even defenses). Blackjack, the gentleman who plays our brick Silhouette, firmly believes that it is at least as important for a brick to be a damage sponge as it is for her to be able to dish out big dice. In other words, the high STUN and CON are as much of being a brick as the bulging muscles and high defenses. The brick should generally be the last character standing in a given fight.

Based on his excellent play of Silhouette, I'm not about to dispute that point.

[Hyper-Man]

good stuff from everyone!

I picked bricks as an example because I thought they would be easier to use to illustrate my main point but it could apply to almost any type of character.

What if my brick was copied or cloned and ended up having to fight his virtual twin. Again, I am going back to the Superman example because virtually every possible example of this sort of thing has happened to him. In Superman II he shakes his hand after hitting Zod on the jaw because it hurt his hand just like if any of us were to punch one another in the jaw. Is that level of realism (a crazy thing to shoot for in a Champions game, I know...) possible to fit into an otherwise relatively standard champions game?