Transfering Knowledge of the Gameworld (and other Homebrew Concerns)

[BlackSword]

This topic came up in a Fantasy Hero thread, but the issue crosses all genres, so I choose to put it in here in a more general forum so that more people can see it.

Anyhow, what sparked me to start this topic was Lightray's comment:

Homebrew campaign worlds are more problematical. You have the problem that while the GM knows a lot about the world, the players probably do not. And they're going to be bored listening to the GM lecture them about politics, history, economics, etc. (it's like a GM version of "how kewl is my character").

Most gamers have a notebook or entire harddrive with notes for a campaign that they will run someday (or for me stacks of loose leaf paper). So moving from thoughts in a potential GM's head, to paper, to the game table, what are some concerns and issues in doing so?

How do people go about this without writing a dissertation or dropping into professor mode? I tried a semi-long e-mail, I think it got ignored by some people and others might not remember all the important information (because not being the GM they don't know what is important). Also with trying to transfer knowledge some of it will be forgotten and its annoying (to the players) to continually badger the players with, "Well didn't you read that e-mail?" Perhaps a short introduction fiction, that helps to introduce some aspects of the game world.

Another aspect as Lightray put it was how do you keep the world from becoming the GM's uber-NPC?

The best way to alleviate homebrewitis that I've found is to involve the players in the world-building. I've run an Ars Magica game where each player designed a magi House in the new world, and so knew quite a bit about the culture. And recently we built a fun D&D world after a spontaneous game of "You're gods creating a D&D world. Go."

This is something that I will probably do. Build the basic aspects of the game world and then use the players to help fill in details. If the players can do %40 of the work, that mean less work for me. Talking with the guy that used to GM my group though, it can have drawbacks. If Player A has a great idea, and the GM decides to implement it, it might not be like Player A expected. A's thoughts were that his idea would drive a plot that could end in deciding if the world lives or dies, GM might think its interesting enough to add as scenic bus-stop on the way to Podunkville. I will involve the players in the game world, even going so far as to ask for potential plots and if they have any major twists they would like for their characters during the course of the campaign.

Of course all of this is dependant for me on the players interested in a Supers campaign and using my ideas for a gameworld (Tarnished Silver similar to the current run of JSA).

Any other people have thoughts, hurdles and succeses with homebrews?

[Supreme Serpent]

Most supers and modern games would be easier I think, as most of the basics people are familiar with - don't need to explain CNN, the internet, interstate highways, supermarkets, etc. to most folks. Info on "what's different" than the real world would be enough - ie supers, here's well-known villains/heroes, orgs, and you can buy jet-packs at Sears. Enough to get started.

As for fleshing them out with player help - I'm trying that now. Link
For fantasy worlds, it can be harder, as you have more to explain. Drawing parallels can help out, give the players reference points "The Dwarves around here act a lot like Vikings, but worship the local volcano and believe in reincarnation" should be enough to give players a basic grasp.

I was involved in a partially-player built world. Three players, we all made our characters and background independently, which included basics on our homelands. GM expanded, fleshed some things out, slapped the countries on a map, filled in other countries/areas, and we got started. Worked really well.


EDIT: Wanted to add that the "homebrew" problem can be the same as that faced with published/established settings that the players aren't familiar with.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Involving the players in the worldbuilding can indeed be a great help. My best-realized homebrew world, Dolwr, uses this approach. (To give you an idea of the amount of work we're talking here, the pantheon alone is a huge undertaking...it has nearly 300 gods in it.)

Another thing I do is give the players some very general info about the world, and then only fill in more details as necessary (they're in that area of the world, the background for their character includes that area, etc.)

An example might be in order; this is what I tell beginning players about the current socio-political set-up of Dolwr:

The lands of Dolwr are divided into what are referred to as the Five Kingdoms, even though only one of them is an actual kingdom.

The largest, land-area-wise, is Meropia in the north. Roughly speaking, Meropia extends from the mountains of Dunuth-Din all the way up to the Forever Snows. The population tends to be concentrated along the coasts, though, and a huge part of the 'kingdom' is usually referred to as "The Empty Lands." The culture is rather Viking in its set-up, but more egalitarian. They do raid down the eastern coast into the lands of Dunuth-Din and Eclidan, with the worst raids coming in years of poor harvests. They tend to be suspicious of outsiders because every year they have to deal with infiltration by the agents of Frestwith, the Queen of Winter [one of the gods] when she begins her annual march south. Every year, as Frestwith is preparing for her campaign, the people of Meropia hold what is called the Harrowith, in which they root out and destroy the agents of Frestwith. The Harrowith is not a good time to be an 'outsider' in Meropia, and you don't want to know how many innocents are put to death each year in the zeal to destroy the agents of Winter. Primary industries are fur trapping, fishing, and raiding.

To the south of Meropia lies Dunuth-Din. Dunuth-Din is almost entirely mountainous. The people are hard-working and self-reliant; each town is very nearly isolated from the others by high mountain peaks and deep valleys. Mining and metalworking are the primary industries. It's also said that several dwarven cities may be found in Dunuth-Din, and rumors about that the best smiths in Dunuth-Din have been dwarven trained, though you'll never find one in Dunuth-Din who claims (or admits) that to be the case.

South and west of Dunuth-Din is Kalamshan. Kalamshan is the smallest of the Five Kingdoms in terms of land area, and is almost entirely covered by a dense forest of huge old trees. The towns and villages of Kalamshan exist in isolated pockets hewn out of the forest, connected by a spiderweb of small roads. The people of Kalamshan are insular and distrusting of strangers; they will do business with them grudgingly if at all. This is because the elves live in the forest that surrounds the towns, and they monitor and defend the forest against intrusion with a grim, high-handed iron fist. The people of Kalamshan live there at the sufferance of the elves, and they know it.

A marked contrast to the home-bound Kalamshanners are those that own and work the great trade caravans. Not every trade caravan in Dolwr is a Kalamshanner caravan, though most are. The Kalamshanners who work the caravans are outgoing, friendly, and a fund of all kinds of odd knowledge. A Kalamshanner trade caravan might make its way home (to Kalamshan) once every 10 years or so as it winds through the lands of Dolwr. The Kalamshanners have been at this so long that the Kalamshanner tongue is used as the 'trade' or 'common' language.

South and east of Dunuth-Din is Eclidan, which has the largest population of all the Five Kingdoms. Eclidan is largely agricultural, with most of the land encompassing broad, flat, fertile plains. The society is feudal, with a king (or queen) and a bevvy of lesser nobility. They are advanced in the arts and sciences, and the largest and best universities can be found in Eclidan. The language of Eclidan is also known as the "scholar's tongue", and most writings of importance are either written in, or translated into, the language. (It functions rather like Latin in the real world.)

On the southernmost tip of Dolwr, between Kalamshan and Eclican and in the rain shadow of the mountains of Dunuth-Din is Breccia. Breccia is the 2nd smallest of the Five Kingdoms, and is sharply divided in land types: a thin fertile band along the southern coast, and the High Desert which makes up 90% of the land. The peoples are just as sharply divided...the nomads of the High Desert and the very "civilized" peoples and cities of the coast. The "civilized" part of Breccia has a very 'Arabian Knights' flavor. The people are among the most open-minded and egalitarian in all of Dolwr. A number of what would normally be considered "monsters" work and live alongside humans and dwarves. Basically, if you can pull your weight and don't make too much trouble, the "civilized" Breccians couldn't care less what you look like. This Breccia is the most cosmopolitan of all the areas of Dolwr, and it is said that nearly anything can be had in the marketplaces of its cities. The universities rival (and in some areas surpass) those of Eclidan. Amongst all this advanced civilzation, though, it is worth noting that the "civilized" Breccians are the only openly slave-holding society, with slavery as a punishment for debts being very common.

South of the main landmass are the Isles of the Sun, so-called because it is said that Mikhara, God of the Sun, makes his home there. The Isles are not a single political unit; instead, each island (or smaller group of islands) is ruled by a single individual, and alliances and treaties shift, change, and broken on a daily basis. It's like a combination of the city-states of Italy and the pirate culture of the Carribbean with a good dose of Machiavelli and the Borgias thrown in. You can't keep track of the politics without a score card, and probably not then. Most of the peoples of Dolwr regard the Isles as a hive of deceit, scandal, decedance and perversion, and they're not far wrong. There is a very efficient legal system, though, and you can be sure you'll get the finest justice your money can buy. The major industries are spices and rare foods, and piracy.


...and there you have it. A paragraph or two about each of the major areas and its peoples. General enough and short enough not to cause boredom, but with enough snippets to give a basic 'flavor' for the area. At this stage the players don't need to know historical details like the fact that what is now modern Eclidan was, in the past, 7 smaller kingdoms that were welded into one by an ambitious and warmongering king, or that there's an area in northwestern Dunuth-Din that has a distinctly Celtic flavor, and so on. Those sorts of details can be added on an as-needed basis.

I also have a story about the creation of the world, that sets the tone for the way the mythology is put together, that I also tell the players -- or have their characters hear the story as part of the performance of a bard/storyteller in an inn.

Well, that's my approach, anyway. Did I manage to illustrate my point, or did I bore you to tears?

[Captain Obvious]

I don't know about giving the players too much play in building the world. Not that I think people who GM more often are more creative or better somehow than people who tend to play. My thoughts are that too many cooks spoil the soup. If I'm building a world with a heavy Arthurian feel and invite Anime-Fan and the Master-of-Playstation-Hack-and-Slash to help with major aspects of the world, then the final product won't seem too different from Generic Fantasy World. I don't have issues with some minor additions, like a player wanting to be Hunted by some secret death cult, when I haven't planned for a secret death cult already.

I think the best way to get across knowledge of the gameworld, whether homebrewed or just unfamiliar to one or more players, is to scatter little details of daily life throughout play. When a character comes home and is about to be ambushed, describe how he's going about his habitual obeisance to the household god at the foyer altar when he hears a stealthy footstep behind. After the fight, describe the amulet the assassin wears under his outer coat as bearing the sign of the Sons of Nurat, the same group of assassins who slew Baron Horst von Merra and his all of his direct heirs, and who claim that no mark lives more than a fortnight once they're on his trail.

Basically, throw details in here and there, but don't go giving dissertations on the history of the world or cultural minutiae unless specifically asked. Even then, gloss over lots of stuff, especially if it's not pertinent, or at least a worthwhile red herring. And make sure the player knows what the character would know before he jumps into something over his head. "Stepping on the chief's shadow is taboo, and punishable by immediate death. Do you still want to get that close to him?"

[Houston GM]

I tried a semi-long e-mail, I think it got ignored by some people

I think mine was ignored by most of the players.

It's easiest when you start with some common ground. My Champions campaign was set in Houston. All I had to do was point out the major differences from the Houston we live in.

With Fantasy it was a little harder. I told my players that my world was based on the Warhammer Fantasy world (two of them wargame in that setting). I then gave a three paragraph description for the people who weren't familiar with the setting.

When one person asked about the local countries and religions, I sent them an e-mail containing a 1-paragraph description of each country and religion.

Any other people have thoughts, hurdles and succeses with homebrews?

I haven't found a perfect system, but here's what has worked:

1) Break it up piecemeal. No one will read a six page description (unless it's about character creation or XP rewards). But some of them will read a few paragraphs.

2) Give them information when they directly request it. If someone asks about the world's politics, he will probably read everything you send him.

3) Give the information as a "secret". If you start the information with: "None of the other PCs know this, but you do...", I can guarantee that they will read the entire thing. They will ask you additional questions. They will go over it again looking for hidden meanings.

4) Give it to them as it arises in-game. When something comes up that the players should know, tell one of them "As a mercenary you would know that..." By tying the information to their background or one of their skills, it becomes more important to them.

[Eosin]

My approach

First, nearly all the FH/Fantasy games that I have ran take place in my homebrew barring a few forays into Birthright. A few of the players know as much as I do about some parts of the world. The game world has evolved and some things have changed over the course of the years but it is the same game world in the same time frame.

Second, our group maintains campaign logs like my storyhour here or Edsells storyhour here. The storyhours often reveal additional detail that is worked in rather than handing a player a 5 page handout on XXX. Players absorb better in small doses.

Third, DM/Player discussions on builds/weapons/magic. These are great opprotunities to impart history and ideas to your players.

Fourth, player handouts and a largely written game world.

That works well for me and most of my players understand the dynamics of a complex game world.

[Nevenall]

I do it in bits during games. Tell the players only things that concern them directly. When brainstorming about fighting a troll camp, "It’s common knowledge that all trolls have a gold heart which, if taken from them, allows you to command them."
I do it this way because the players are more interested in the bits of detail that concern their most immediate decisions and actions. Plus, if the information was important or useful to them they will be sure to remember it in case they need it again.
Then you get a nice sense of the characters becoming more aware of the world in general as they adventure.

[OddHat]

Many of the above suggestions are good. I'd add:

1) There's no need for them to know everything. In a fantasy game, I hand out a short list of facts (10-15 bullet points) and answer other questions as they come up. Give everyone a few Everyman sills in history and geography (or not) if you want an excuse to say "You think that Dalvinia is next to the Ice Mountains. Their king had some kind of problem with a dragon a few years back." There are plenty of people in the real world who have no idea which countries border on which, or who the president or priminister is of any country other than their own. Heck, many Americans have no idea which states border on which.

2) If a player has a good idea in his or her background, talk it over with him or her and then ask permission to borrow it. If your version is different, then the character had his or her facts wrong. If the player doesn't like that, he or she should make it clear, and you can refrain from using it.

3) Use the real world, even in fantasy games. A game set in a world "Like Victorian England, but with magic" is easier for your players to imagine than something you made up on your own, and easy for them to research if they feel like it. Just renting a movie set in Victorian England (or wherever) will give them all sorts of ideas. That kind of world will be easier for you to build as well; you can always change whatever you'd like.
If they want to know what you've changed, they'll ask.

[Captain Obvious]

Thinking about this some more, I think another good way to introduce gameworld elements to players is the way I did it with Mage: the Ascension. Obviously, unless you have already played it, there is a metric assload of material to sort through to have any idea of the world. New players didn't even know where to begin in character creation.

Fortunately, one page of the Mage book has one line descriptions of all the Traditions. This was my starting point for new players. When they found a couple that sounded interesting, I let them read the short paragraphs about those Traditions at the beginning of the book. Once they chose one, I directed them to the two page writeups in the main book, and the Tradition books.

A similar approach could work in a homebrew fantasy world, with one line descriptions of places, or races, or groups, or what have you, followed up with short descriptions, and finally, the encyclopedic entries that completists love, but just annoy those who want to smash heads.

[Rapier]

One benefit I've found in low tech games (eg fantasy), is travel time and distance.

Your average tinker/trader is going to travel about 10 miles a day with his waggon and horsey. He is only going to be able to travel for about 4 or possibly 5 months without too many weather problems. Assuming the greatest distance path (straight line), he would have to spend half his time in travel outbound and half inbound. So he can travel 2.5 months outbound. We will figure he spends 20% of his time in stopovers etc (2 months = 60 days @ 10 miles / day = 600 miles). 600 miles in a best case scenario (assuming the weather is bright and sunny and the land is TOTALLY flat...yeah, that might happen). 600 miles is not very far.

Considering travel times etc, even a trader/tinker (who would be your best world traveler construct) would only be able to have seen a MAX of a 600 radius from their home port. Most people would have seen drastically less than that. Most would have MAYBE gotten to the next village or town or perhaps a nearby trading city. How much knowledge of the world would you expect them to have? At best they are going to know generalities (the capital of the Kingdom of Snord is in the east near the sea, trolls are mean) based on rumours and tavern tales.

The players, most likely, don't know much about their world. Before the first encounter with a troll, I gave each player a rumour sheet. It was filled with rumours that they had heard about trolls. Some were true, some were not. They had a great time discovering which were true.

As long as the GM is well prepared for each adventure and able to provide the players with the immediate knowledge they need, the players don't need to know much about the setting. Isn't half the fun in adventuring getting to see new things and people? My typical setting brief is about 1 or 2 pages long. The players get to keep it with them, for reference.

[BlackSword]

One of the reasons of moving the discussion to General was also to take into consideration Sci Fi settings where PCs may have ready access to knowledge. Obviously you can't pass them a star catelogue, and there are solutions such as giving them planatary and system knowledge only when they enter a particular system. But it will be easier for them to know at least some knowledge about all the major political bodies. Knowledge can be shared as it is needed the same as any other game.

While it is fun to learn new things about a world, it also sucks to be told make a character, all you know is that are human (or are you?). I think its as much a mistake to keep the players too in the dark as it can be to give them too much information.

[Lightray]

Well, that's my approach, anyway. Did I manage to illustrate my point, or did I bore you to tears?

Well... there was some scrolling.

In my group, one of the players would love that kind of detail. In fact, I've discovered she's kind of annoyed if she doesn't know that stuff (no "discover the world in play" for her). The others are split between mild interest and short attention span.

So if they weren't involved in the world-building, I give out very brief snippets of information. "here's the map", "he's the king". If I tell them enough economics to know that Florin uses silver guilders as their currency, everyone is on to talking about movies.

For the parts that the players did not collaborate in creating, I pass along that information as part of my descriptions of the gameworld. Rather than "you see a tall figure in red and gold livery with a phoenix crest, he is bald with a goatee" I tell them "you see a tall godblood of House Firebird, and he matches the description you have heard of Baron Kamberel". They may not have met Baron Kamberel, but their characters probably had heard of him, and I thought it far preferable to handing out a spreadsheet listing every petty noble within 50 miles.

(except for that one player, who likes to read such things)

[Lightray]

Perhaps a short introduction fiction, that helps to introduce some aspects of the game world.

I've also tried that, to mixed success. I think it was far more useful to me in realizing the tone and look of the campaign world, and in nailing down characterizations.

But it was hit-or-miss with my players. One thing I've found is that the players are more interested and motivated by the fiction if it is about their characters. I've used that in L5R and now Champions to come up with 1-page "how did you get to this point" summaries of their characters' histories. Usually this is just fleshing out the ideas they gave me on their PC's background, to make sure everyone agrees how it fits into the gameworld.

[Rapier]

One of the reasons of moving the discussion to General was also to take into consideration Sci Fi settings where PCs may have ready access to knowledge. Obviously you can't pass them a star catelogue, and there are solutions such as giving them planatary and system knowledge only when they enter a particular system. But it will be easier for them to know at least some knowledge about all the major political bodies. Knowledge can be shared as it is needed the same as any other game.

While it is fun to learn new things about a world, it also sucks to be told make a character, all you know is that are human (or are you?). I think its as much a mistake to keep the players too in the dark as it can be to give them too much information.

Granted...and props. You are very correct. I don't think there is an easy way out when you are talking good information services. Of course, at the same point...could an anology not be drawn between Cheggo the Dwarf in his mountain city (and his lack of worldwide knowledge) and Jirlano the Glerfling from the planet Glerf V (and his lack of empirewide knowledge)?

Yes, the SciFi route is gonna be a pain. Chances are the players will have a LOT more ready access to information sources than a fantasy group. And the fact that the scifi world is much larger than the dwarven city. I look around me and see that the vast majority of Americans couldn't name the capitals of all 50 states and have difficulty picking Louisiana or Nebraska out of the map. Just because the average citizen would have an empire-spanning, multi-star system information network at their fingertips doesn't mean they use it for more than posting on bulletin boards, surfing porn and buying action figures. There is no reason why they wouldn't be just as clueless about the particulars beyond their own star system.

I think that my rough style of info delivery is scalable. I think it would still work on a galactic scale. The one problem being that as a GM you would have to be MUCH more prepared. The amount of information that might be required is much, much greater. Oh! As an aside, on the FreeStuff page, in the StarHero section is a Star System Generator (or something like that). It draws up star systems, planets and IMS even economic stats on planets. That might go a good way towards filling in the blanks too...and it is REALLY cool.

Thinking about it, this just might be part of the reason I've never run a true scifi game. Maybe I've subconsciously afraid of the extra effort.

[Rapier]

I've also tried that, to mixed success. I think it was far more useful to me in realizing the tone and look of the campaign world, and in nailing down characterizations.

But it was hit-or-miss with my players. One thing I've found is that the players are more interested and motivated by the fiction if it is about their characters. I've used that in L5R and now Champions to come up with 1-page "how did you get to this point" summaries of their characters' histories. Usually this is just fleshing out the ideas they gave me on their PC's background, to make sure everyone agrees how it fits into the gameworld.

My players keep trying to get me to put all of that into a book. Cindy's contention is "that's how DragonLance started." It was just a game someone was running. Then they put it into a book. Now look what's happened. Ka-CHING!

Most of the fiction etc, the players have never seen. I run story lines in my head all the time. How else are you going to figure out how Baron Refcluz met the Mayor of Huryl?