Shield of Confusion

[Sean Waters]

You may have spotted a post or three in the 5th Ed System Rules Questions board:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24393
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24396
http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24428

I’m concerned that, if you have two damage shields on and damage someone with then both by grabbing a target, you are in fact doing a multiple power attack, so I can not see how (without special permission) you can use two damage shields in the same EC at the same time, as the rule is clearly that two powers in an EC can not be used for a multiple power attack.

Multiple power attacks are simply the use of multiple powers to attack a single target at one time with a single roll. You would (in the above example) clearly be using multiple powers, so if it is legal to multiple power attack with two powers in an EC I can only assume that you are not, in fact, an attack…or that there is a special case rule I am unaware of.

So, what I can not get my head around is this…can any of you help to resolve my confusion:

When you damage someone with a damage shield by grabbing them, are you using the damage shield as an attack?

There would seem to be two possible answers:

1. Yes, you are. The power is an attack power. You are using it to cause damage by touching someone when charged, which is an attack. The fact that you can continue to cause damage without further attack rolls after the first (assuming that you manage to hold on) is irrelevant: continuous attacks do the same thing, in fact part of damage shield is that it is continuous.

If this was NOT an attack then you would not be able to attack with an attack power, which would contradict the point of it being an attack power (adding advantages doesn’t change the base type of the power).

2. No, you are not. The grab is the attack, the damage from the damage shield is just a consequence of that, and is not an attack in its own right


Other questions about grabs and damage shields you may be able to help me with.

A. When you are grabbed can you make an immediate ‘free’ attempt to break out with your full strength or can you only use casual strength?

B. Do you have to succeed in a STR v. STR roll to do damage shield damage with a grab, or is it sufficient to gave succeeded in the grab attack roll?

C. If you are attacking Mountain, a 120 foot tall villain, you’ve jumped onto his back and you are clinging there (using the power of the same name), does your damage shield automatically effect him even though you have not technically made a grab roll, or any kind of attack roll against him (apart from against DCV 3 to land on that hex of him: he’s BIG).

[laxrulz777]

I think the answer to the first part is 2... For example, couldn't a character with one damage shield do the following.

Half Move, Martial Grab, Damage Shield kicks in

Crush, Damage Shield kicks in

In the second case you would be doing two attacks (by your logic)...

The damage shield advantage makes the power "something else" I don't know what the something else is but, frankly, I'm not sure it really matters...

As for the rest, I believe you get a Casual Strength check immediately and you could abort to a martial escape IF IT HAS ABORT as a characteristic... Otherwise I don't think you can abort to use you full strength (I might be wrong about this last part)

All you have to do is touch them with a non-damaging hth attack. Martial Grab is sufficient but Choke Hold is not. As long as you're continuing to hold them they continue to take damage (on your segments not theirs)

Well, it wouldn't necessarily be DCV 3... It would be his DCV - the growth effects... and yes you would still affect him with the Damage Shield because (as mentioned above) you hit him with a non-damaging attack (what the DnD d20 system would call a "touch" attack).

[Sean Waters]

I think the answer to the first part is 2... For example, couldn't a character with one damage shield do the following.

Half Move, Martial Grab, Damage Shield kicks in

Crush, Damage Shield kicks in

In the second case you would be doing two attacks (by your logic)...

If you are suggesting that is one phase worth of action, I'm pretty sure you are out with the second 'damage shield kicks in'. If you are saying it is two phases, fine, yes, the damage shield is a continuous attack, the common way to stop it happening is to not be grabbed any more. So long as you pay the END for a continuous attack it continues to do damage and you can do other stuff. I am indeed saying you are making two attacks, as though the damage shield is linked to the grab manoeuvre.

The damage shield advantage makes the power "something else" I don't know what the something else is but, frankly, I'm not sure it really matters...

It only really matters because I like to know what is going on. If it is 'something else', what is it? If it is an attack it would have to be the last thing that happens in the phase, so if someone escapes your grab by aborting to an escape, you can't do damage that phase, whereas if it is not an attack you can do it any time, and, even if someone escapes during your phase they still take the damage.

As for the rest, I believe you get a Casual Strength check immediately and you could abort to a martial escape IF IT HAS ABORT as a characteristic... Otherwise I don't think you can abort to use you full strength (I might be wrong about this last part)

I would allow an abort to full strength but it then becomes your action for that phase, or your next one - it wouldn't be 'free'.

All you have to do is touch them with a non-damaging hth attack. Martial Grab is sufficient but Choke Hold is not. As long as you're continuing to hold them they continue to take damage (on your segments not theirs)

I'm pretty sure you need to grab (unless you pay the higher cost in which case any HTH attack, damaging or not would be the conduit for the ds damage), so I think a choke hold would be fine to cause damage shield damage.

Well, it wouldn't necessarily be DCV 3... It would be his DCV - the growth effects... and yes you would still affect him with the Damage Shield because (as mentioned above) you hit him with a non-damaging attack (what the DnD d20 system would call a "touch" attack).

I think that if you have only paid for the +1/2 advantage, you need a grab. The point of the example was the (slight) absurdity of someone clinging to a large character not transmitting damage becasue they have not done a grab. Of course you could rule you need to do a grab to hold on even if you do have clinging, which makes the clinging kind of pointless.

[laxrulz777]

The powers are constant... The EC rule which you're getting hung up on reads as follows: "Characters cannot combine two or more powers from the same EC into a Multiple-Power Attack (page 234) without GM's permission."

The problem here is a logical syllogism...

You are looking at the rules of a multiple power attack. But read it again. The rules you're reading are conditions for making a special type of attack. If you say to the GM, "I want to fire off my Ultra Bolt and throw a Haymaker punch" your GM would point to page 234 and ask you if you meet all the criteria to be allowed to do such a thing. However, just because you meet these criteria individually doesn't make it a multiple power attack. (the syllogism would be: All Multiple Power Attacks meet Criteria 1-4, however not all actions meeting criteria 1-4 are Multiple Power Attacks)...

I can think of a perfect counter-example. Any linked attack meets all of the criteria for a Multiple-Power attack. And if you're reading of the rules was correct then we could never put linked attacks into an EC. In fact, in reading reading the rules on linked powers its pretty clear that this is not the case. On page 196 the 6th paragraph, 1st column quotes the Multiple Power Attack section almost verbatim but it NEVER says that this is a multiple power attack.

For what you're describing to be a problem the section would have to be something like this.

"A Multiple Power Attack is any action that meets criteria 1, 2, 3 and 4"

I can't believe what a mountain this mole hill has become...

[Sean Waters]

I can't believe what a mountain this mole hill has become...

Well, pile enough stuff on top of a molehill, and one day...anyway, using terms like 'logical syllogism' is just asking for trouble. Sometimes if it looks like a horse, sounds like a horse and the excrement is good for your garden, it IS a horse. Or a zebra.

The, or a point is that FRED does tend to define things quite tightly most of the time. Linked attacks are seperately defined, and have their own rules. No problem there.

And if you're reading of the rules was correct then we could never put linked attacks into an EC

The rules are very clear that you can NOT link slots in an EC to work together (top of FRED 204), but it would probably be a further syllositic fallacy to say that this goes towards proving my point. You can link powers in a slot but then you are limited to the active points of the EC, at least if you want to get a cost break. Being allowed to attack with two different slots in an EC at the same time seems to violate the spirit of ECs, which are already a cost efficient way of spending points.

So you can't link EC slots, you can't use them together in a multiple power attack and yet still, somehow, it is OK to have two DSs in the same EC working together and both causing damage to a target at the same time.

If it is a special case, fine. I just want to know what it is.

[laxrulz777]

You'll note that i did not say "can't put linked slots" I said can't put linked attacks which you clearly can

quoting from page 204:

"You cannot Link Powers in different slots of an EC to activate together. You must buy any Linked Powers in a single slot... "

It's not a special case... it's just not a multiple power attack...

[Victim]

You aren't making a MPA because Damage Shields are continous. Once turned on, they work automatically. Of course, with this interpretation, you couldn't turn on both damage shields at the same time because that would be a MPA (activating 2 attack powers in an EC at the same time).

[laxrulz777]

activating a DS does not require an attack roll so it doesn't qualify as a multiple power attack

frankly the rules on DS are a bit unclear anyways (for example, does it cost end every turn or just when it deals damage??)

but the MPA aspect is quite clear

[Sean Waters]

You aren't making a MPA because Damage Shields are continous. Once turned on, they work automatically. Of course, with this interpretation, you couldn't turn on both damage shields at the same time because that would be a MPA (activating 2 attack powers in an EC at the same time).

Agreed, entirely: interesting thought...if you grab someone THEN turn on the damage shield, does it cause damage? The strong implication from the rules is that you turn on the DS then grab to cause damage, so you need to grab before activation but that wouldn't make a great deal of sense, would it?

[Sean Waters]

activating a DS does not require an attack roll so it doesn't qualify as a multiple power attack

frankly the rules on DS are a bit unclear anyways (for example, does it cost end every turn or just when it deals damage??)

but the MPA aspect is quite clear

Activating an EB doesn't require an attack roll. Damaging something with it does. Activating a DS doesn't require an attack roll, damaging something with it does - a grab roll (after which it follows the rules for continuous attacks).

My understanding is that a DS requires END every phase it is on whether or not it is causing damage.

[OddHat]

Using a Damage Shield is not an Attack Action, and that therefore having two of the things up at once has nothing to do with Multiple Power Attacks.

If you punch a spike, the spike does not need an attack action to enter your hand; you just took care of that. If the spike is covered in poison, more the worse for you; you just inflicted two types of harm upon yourself, all without the spike needing to take any action at all. If you continue to attack the spike, you might cut yourself to ribbons, all without the spike ever needing to act at all.

Solution: Stop punching the spike.

[Sean Waters]

Using a Damage Shield is not an Attack Action, and that therefore having two of the things up at once has nothing to do with Multiple Power Attacks.

If you punch a spike, the spike does not need an attack action to enter your hand; you just took care of that. If the spike is covered in poison, more the worse for you; you just inflicted two types of harm upon yourself, all without the spike needing to take any action at all. If you continue to attack the spike, you might cut yourself to ribbons, all without the spike ever needing to act at all.

Solution: Stop punching the spike.

So this thread is my hand....

Herein lies (some of) my confusion. You see, with damage shield, you get hurt if you punch the spike,but also if the spike grabs you. We could capitalise it and set it in the Buffyverse if that helps...

If the spike grabs you, it IS doing an attack roll.

If that is not attacking with the damage shield, then you CAN'T attack with the attack power that the DS is built on, which seems daft. To take a similar example, you could build a continuous EB No range One Hex AE, personal immunity...like a damage shield but cheaper and more effective (an 8d6 EB built this way would cost 73 points as against a DS of the same power which would cost 100). That wouldn't require an attack roll. If you had two of them in an EC would it be OK two attack with both of them at the same time?

What if they weren't continuing....?

ON THE PLUS SIDE I think I am seeing some light. I can accept that if you turn on two powers in an EC on (say) two seperate phases, and they are continuing attacks then you are not doing a multiple power attack, even if you are using both to damage the same target. Fully accept that, no conflict involved using two DSs you have already switched on.

What I've been concentrating on , however, is the first phase...the one where you activate your powers. Activating a power is zero phase, so you can do it to any and all EC powers, no problem, and the two DSs are 'on' so grabbing someone deals the damage. It just seems wrong.

If I buy AE Radius for my damage shield to simulate a bigger flaming aura, causing damage with a DS is not an attack action, I can circumvent in effect the rule that says that an attack ends your phase. Buy 30" of running, run past any number of targets and hurt hem all. Take no OCV or DCV penalties (it isn't an attack) and finish your run past with a martial dodge, do you are safe until next turn.

OK you may say I need to grab by each target - in which case the AE radius is pointless - and we revert to the above example of a continuing personal immunity AE EB - which clearly would not require a grab roll.

I may be getting way off subject, but there is something broken in here somewhere....

[OddHat]

I may be getting way off subject, but there is something broken in here somewhere....

House rule it away if you think it's unbalanced; from a special effects point of view it makes sense, and from a mechanical game design point of view it makes as much sense as most things to do with ECs. At this point you're just whinging.

[Sean Waters]

House rule it away if you think it's unbalanced; from a special effects point of view it makes sense, and from a mechanical game design point of view it makes as much sense as most things to do with ECs. At this point you're just whinging.

But I'm sooooooooooo good at whinging....

[Vorsch]

The rules are very clear that you can NOT link slots in an EC to work together (top of FRED 204), but it would probably be a further syllositic fallacy to say that this goes towards proving my point. You can link powers in a slot but then you are limited to the active points of the EC, at least if you want to get a cost break. Being allowed to attack with two different slots in an EC at the same time seems to violate the spirit of ECs, which are already a cost efficient way of spending points.

So you can't link EC slots, you can't use them together in a multiple power attack and yet still, somehow, it is OK to have two DSs in the same EC working together and both causing damage to a target at the same time.

If it is a special case, fine. I just want to know what it is.

If i may come up with a counter example to the official rules.

Green Lanterns ring, an obsure example i know, who after all has heard of the Green lanturn comics.

Any way this ring produces green force, a combination of Images, Force Wall and Telekinesis, Linked and fitting a good definition of tight group (for me at least).

Another triumph of the Hero 5Th ed.