Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

[Basil]

Or to take a refrence directly from a Hero Book

Galactic Champions by Darren Watts, P.25
"In the year 2149, Humanity developed true portable fusion energy sources, allowing ships to travel between planets at previously unthinkable speeds."

Apparently the first human colony was founded on Mars on 2093.

Now there's some info that ought to have been in Alien Wars (& maybe Terran Empire). That gives some highly useful background info.

It goes on to say that hyperdrive was invented in 2203, which allowed travel at 20% faster than the speed of light. It was not until 11 years later (in 2214) that the first human colony outside the Sol system was founded on Alpha Centauri IV.

Then what are the Senate Worlds in 2104???

So it sounds to me like the earliest colonies were probably created using very slow chemical or Ion drives. These drives were replaced by (i'm guessing) much more powerful particle drives powered by fusion reactions.

Fusion power plants allowed STL travel for about 60 years before hyperdrive was invented, but that there was no permanent human presence outside of our solar system during that time.

The problem with even fusion power plants is the propellent fraction has to be enormously high, or the travel times are enormously long. Or, you don't settle outside the Solar System at all.
Of course, even inside the Solar System, travel times are high between planets. And the easiest way to go faster that Hohmann orbits is not fusion-powered (near) constant acceleration, but light sails.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying the whole timeline for Alien Wars. I know it's jsut a game, and hand-waving is expected and perfectly fine. But in a supposedly gritty, "realistic" sub-genre like Military SF, a good deal of 'respect' for physics-as-we-know-it is a desideratum. And on lthe whole matter of propulsion, Alien Wars falls down on the job.

[Basil]

We are. My official explanation is I don't want to say anything now that would tie my hands later. It may take a while, but I do want to get around to publishing those other settings at some point. Even if I wanted to delve back into it right now and come up with a quickie quasi-plausible answer I could back off of later, I don't have the time right now -- gotta finish up HC. But I'll see if I can find the time after that.

Well, that's a & to me.

[allen]

Still, it brings up the question: What "Senate Worlds" are there in 2104?...

errr... ummmm... Mars? ok. maybe not.

well, to be honest, in my attempt to not back the guy who writes Solar Hero into a corner, i muffed it up. the description should include a passage along the following:

Member nations of the United Earth in the year 2104 passed the Colony Act, which states the colony is the sole responsibility of the member nation, not the United Earth government, yadda, yadda, yadda, and at a later date, when the nation-states of Earth became parts of a one-world government, the Colony Act was then interpreted to apply to Senate Worlds also.

[Basil]

Another option might be giving Earth an actual Antimatter infrastructure and letting starships use antimatter photon drives. Those would have an exhaust speed of near c (light speed), and that'd significantly reduce the amount of propellant needed.

That kind of fuel would not be "easy to obtain", though.

It'd also be a ***** to store! It would be dangerous in the extreme, be subject to "shrinkage", etc.

Also, the "antimatter photonic" rocket idea (advanced by Eugen Sänger in the 1950's) is unworkable. The current thinking is to use antiprotons only, and either "channel" the pions produced when they interact with protons, via a "magnetic nozzle", or to use the interaction to heat a propellent (such as hydrogen, water, methane, etc.) and have that "fly out the back". Either one means a noteworthy amount of propellent.

BTW, according to The Starflight Handbook, for anitmatter rockets (for use in the Solar System, mind you!) to be feasible, the cost of making antiprotons has to come down to ~$10 million per milligram, and the current (1989) cost is $100 billion per milligram.

[Basil]

errr... ummmm... Mars? ok. maybe not.

well, to be honest, in my attempt to not back the guy who writes Solar Hero into a corner, i muffed it up. the description should include a passage along the following:

Member nations of the United Earth in the year 2104 passed the Colony Act, which states the colony is the sole responsibility of the member nation, not the United Earth government, yadda, yadda, yadda, and at a later date, when the nation-states of Earth became parts of a one-world government, the Colony Act was then interpreted to apply to Senate Worlds also.

That'd work.

Of course it raises the question: when does Earth get a one-world government? Also, what of the UN's "no exploitation of outer space" treaty (I forget its proper name)? In fact, how does that debating group called "The United Nations" turn into "the United Earth" -- of course, those questions don't have to be answered now. That's what "Solar Hero" is for.

[DrTemp]

It'd also be a ***** to store! It would be dangerous in the extreme, be subject to "shrinkage", etc.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Also, the "antimatter photonic" rocket idea (advanced by Eugen Sänger in the 1950's) is unworkable. The current thinking is to use antiprotons only, and either "channel" the pions produced when they interact with protons, via a "magnetic nozzle", or to use the interaction to heat a propellent (such as hydrogen, water, methane, etc.) and have that "fly out the back". Either one means a noteworthy amount of propellent.

How can this be for the former? The latter, okay, sure. But simply redirecting the pions should not require any additional propellant?

BTW, according to The Starflight Handbook, for anitmatter rockets (for use in the Solar System, mind you!) to be feasible, the cost of making antiprotons has to come down to ~$10 million per milligram, and the current (1989) cost is $100 billion per milligram.

That is something a revolutionary energy source like fusion power, combined with new, better techniques of producing antimatter and a reason to do so on a large scale could actually do.

[Basil]

There are no Senate Worlds in 2104. That is when the Colony Act was signed. It was at that point that the Earth Government agreed to let the Senate colonize worlds and take control of them if they would pay for the colonization process. The Earth Government agreed to that in part because they knew it would take decades to colonize a world without the Hyperdrives.

From Alien Wars, page 7:
"The Senate itself created the conflict between federalism and planetary rights by passing the Colony Act of 2104. The Act stated that individual Senate Worlds {emphasis added}, not the United Earth government, were wholly responsible for establishing and administering Colony Worlds."

Now, one could assume the Colony Act created the concept "Senate Worlds", even though there weren't any, and also said they would be responsible for all colonizing efforts. That, however, raises the question of who/what is responsible for colonizing the "Senate Worlds".

Sorry, that won't fly.

[Basil]

Now there's some info that ought to have been in Alien Wars (& maybe Terran Empire). That gives some highly useful background info.

The fusion plant informatin is in both books. Mars getting a colony is mentioned in Terran Empire.

Allow me to repeat what I was responding to:

Or to take a refrence directly from a Hero Book

Galactic Champions by Darren Watts, P.25
"In the year 2149, Humanity developed true portable fusion energy sources, allowing ships to travel between planets at previously unthinkable speeds."

Apparently the first human colony was founded on Mars on 2093.

I thought it clear, in the context of the discussion, that I was referring to the specification of the dates. There is nothing in either Alien Wars nor Terran Empire that says when those two events occured. Which, to my mind, is important information; information that certainly could easily have been included.

[Basil]

You are assuming because the world didn't have the Class Alpha drive until 2203 that they had nothing but rockets before then.

No, but I see nothing else mentioned anywhere. Indeed, I'm sure the settlement of the Solar System will not, and reasonably could not, be done with rockets alone. The matter of propellent is too grave for dependence on rockets alone.

But I would point out that the "better" chemical and fusion rockets in AW were not invented until 2253, 50 years later. It is obvious that there was something that allowed space travel between 2100-2200.

Is it obvious?

It was not until 11 years later (in 2214) that the first human colony outside the Sol system was founded on Alpha Centauri IV.

Thus, there was no settlement outside the Solar System, and hence no manned flight outside the Solar System until Hyperdrive came along.

So, I guess one must assume the statement in AW, page 7, that The Colony Act did said that Senate Worlds were responsible for colonization, is wrong, and that the Act said members of the Senate (I guess separate nations) were so responsible.
Which brings up a number of other question, such as what nations managed to colonize, when did Earth get a true one-world government, etc.

There could have been several different things which allowed for 0.5-0.8c travel which just became obsolete after 2203. We just don't know what it is, yet.

Such a drive would not become obsolete for STL! If there's something that can accelerate to 0.5c or higher, at a reasonable cost (in money, energy, propellent or lack thereof), there would be utterly no reason to abandon it.

Also, let me quote from AW p.125 (copied in TE page 158): "Travel within Hyperspace depends of two things: first, a ship's normal propulsion (since the ship has to propel itself through Hyperspace)..." Thus, whatever STL is in use, is part of FTL. If there's something better than rockets by 2203, it won't become obsolete when the Hyperdrive shunt is invented.

[DrTemp]

Now, one could assume the Colony Act created the concept "Senate Worlds", even though there weren't any,

That's not correct. There was at least Earth.

Suggestion: The Colony Act was actually some kind of political maneuver to achieve some completely different, more day-to-day buisiness-like thing which is now long forgotten. "By accident", it was also a document that allowed for the legal concept of "more than one Senate world", because until then, there was only one world allowed to send senators, and that was Earth, of course. (For example, the real idea behind the Colony Act and a few related documents that in effect changed the UE's constitution could have been to install a new office: That of Earth's senator, who would have been quite powerful given the fact that he was the only one...no one of those who passed the Colony Act really believed that there could ever be a real "Senate" with many Senators.)

[DrTemp]

Such a drive would not become obsolete for STL! If there's something that can accelerate to 0.5c or higher, at a reasonable cost (in money, energy, propellent or lack thereof), there would be utterly no reason to abandon it.

Well, it could have been a drive that was of very high impulse, but very low thrust, allowing for accelerations of 0.01 g (0.1 m/s^2) or even less, but for a very long time with a given propellant mass. That would make it useless for tactical or short-term operations, but quite valuable for interstellar travel at STL speeds.

[Blue Jogger]

My explanation...

At first, lots of sleeper ships and generational ships were sent out, but some ships accidently fell victim to a previously unknown gravitational anomaly resulting from some undetected dark matter. These pockets of dark matter would slingshot ships to near light speed (or beyond) in the same direction they were previously travelling. Thereby (usually) cutting huge amounts of travel time but also horribly damaging the ship, sometimes losing people and cargo in the process. But, the excess velocity was usually bled off before reaching another solar system. Also, if the entry direction was off by a degree, well, I hope you like your new destination.

Oddly enough, the universe has more of these pockets than planets, so it should be considered quite normal.

Today, these pockets of dark matter sometimes affectionally known as Skid Zones, Bounce Points, God's Slingshots (and other more colorful names) can be easily detected and are really best to be avoided as a severe hazard. However, if you are in the middle of nowhere with a broken FTL drive, one can be excused for at least considering using one if it is nearby.

[Steve]

My explanation...

At first, lots of sleeper ships and generational ships were sent out, but some ships accidently fell victim to a previously unknown gravitational anomaly resulting from some undetected dark matter. These pockets of dark matter would slingshot ships to near light speed (or beyond) in the same direction they were previously travelling. Thereby (usually) cutting huge amounts of travel time but also horribly damaging the ship, sometimes losing people and cargo in the process. But, the excess velocity was usually bled off before reaching another solar system. Also, if the entry direction was off by a degree, well, I hope you like your new destination.

Oddly enough, the universe has more of these pockets than planets, so it should be considered quite normal.

Today, these pockets of dark matter sometimes affectionally known as Skid Zones, Bounce Points, God's Slingshots (and other more colorful names) can be easily detected and are really best to be avoided as a severe hazard. However, if you are in the middle of nowhere with a broken FTL drive, one can be excused for at least considering using one if it is nearby.

You know, that's not a bad idea. While it has the rubber science feel of Star Trek to it, it would be a fair way explain how you could have human colonies way off the beaten track and far beyond what the 21st-22nd century technology would allow for. I could see them as a real downside to hyperspace travel, since they could probably rip the guts out of a hyperdrive by creating some sort of subspace eddy or even a kind of gravitational riptide.

[Dr. Anomaly]

But, the excess velocity was usually bled off before reaching another solar system.

Uh, I hate to rain on your parade, but by what mechanism is the excess velocity "bled off"? It's not like they're in an atmosphere where they'd loose velocity due to friction...

[DrTemp]

Uh, I hate to rain on your parade, but by what mechanism is the excess velocity "bled off"? It's not like they're in an atmosphere where they'd loose velocity due to friction...

Well, friction is the cause nevertheless. Interstellar space is not as empty as it would seem- it has, indeed, a very, very, very, very thin "atmosphere" of hydrogen and other gases. That does not matter normally, but when moving at the speed of light...