Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

[Southern Cross]

And what sort of protection would they have against radiation? Remember the Doppler Effect applies to both light and sound waves....

[Nyrath]

Well, friction is the cause nevertheless. Interstellar space is not as empty as it would seem- it has, indeed, a very, very, very, very thin "atmosphere" of hydrogen and other gases. That does not matter normally, but when moving at the speed of light...

Again, more rain for your parade.
If the interstellar medium is dense enough to slow down a ship moving near lightspeed, from the reference frame of the ship the medium will appear to be a million-REM bombardment of cosmic rays. The crew would die instantly, and the ship would be gradually eroded away.

This is why Bussard ramjets have magnetic scoops.

I know it is tired and over-used, but for the effect you want it is hard to beat a momentary Wormhole.

[Basil]

Suggestion: The Colony Act was actually some kind of political maneuver to achieve some completely different, more day-to-day buisiness-like thing which is now long forgotten. "By accident", it was also a document that allowed for the legal concept of "more than one Senate world", because until then, there was only one world allowed to send senators, and that was Earth, of course. (For example, the real idea behind the Colony Act and a few related documents that in effect changed the UE's constitution could have been to install a new office: That of Earth's senator, who would have been quite powerful given the fact that he was the only one...no one of those who passed the Colony Act really believed that there could ever be a real "Senate" with many Senators.)

That, and some other suggestions from this thread, could work. Thing is, why wasn't it covered in the history section of Alien Wars? If they're going to call The Colony Act so important to later events, why brush it off like they did?

[Basil]

Now, one could assume the Colony Act created the concept "Senate Worlds", even though there weren't any, and also said they would be responsible for all colonizing efforts. That, however, raises the question of who/what is responsible for colonizing the "Senate Worlds".

Sorry, that won't fly.

The point is the Senate knew there were worlds to be colonized and so they passed the Colony Act before people began to be shipped to those worlds. The Senate wanted control of those worlds. The Earth Government allowed them to have the act because they knew it would take decades before many well-established colonies could be formed. As you said, at 0.5c you are looking at several years to get to Alpha Centauri alone, and there is supply, terraforming, etc. The Earth Government knew that it could all be settled at a later date. It was just a way of the Government getting something for free and then thinking they could fix it a century down the road to better suit them. Unfortunately a century later hyperdrives appeared and things got more complicated. Now they were not talking about 4 years to Alpha Centauri or Vega or where ever.

It would seem to make a lot of sense that the Senate would try to get the Colony Act passes before there were colonies. They wanted the control, and they got it, but they had to pay for it.

Again, a possible explanation. However, my original post, and what I've been trying to get people to consider, is that the book as written has a timeline that will not work unless either FTL existed before 2203, or The Colony Act was --- contrary to what is said --- passed by a "Senate" when there were no Senate Worlds.

Frankly, the errata for Alien Wars needs to correct the use of "Senate Worlds" on page 7; or at least point out that the Act as (first) written referred to "Senate Nations" (or whatever you want to call it), and was later amended/interpreted to refer to "Senate Worlds"

[Basil]

It must be obvious. You, yourself, just got through saying "I'm sure the settlement of the Solar System will not, and reasonably could not, be done with rockets alone" so that must mean they used something else; something that will be described in Solar Hero no doubt.

You have taken what I said completely out of context. Here is the context restored:

But I would point out that the "better" chemical and fusion rockets in AW were not invented until 2253, 50 years later. It is obvious that there was something that allowed space travel between 2100-2200.

Is it obvious?

While I see no way the Solar System will be (in the future of the real world) settled solely by rockets, there is nothing obvious about extensive use of non-rockets in the invented 'history' given in Alien Wars. Indeed, there's no sign the author even knew of non-rocket, non-rubber-science STL drives that are, even now, known to be workable (some have even been experimented with).

Considering what is actually in the book, especially the fact that "Hyperdrive" provides no propulsion of its own (as described in the text), and that rockets are all that is mentioned, and I think it reasonable to ask whether there's anything "obvious" about non-rocket STL having been developed and then abandoned. Indeed, I can't believe in such a scenario.

[Basil]

The fusion rocket of 2253 only gives a sustained speed of 570" per turn. That is a whopping 194 mph. I somehow think there is something between 194 mph and 1.2 LY per year.

Check out Star Hero; it has a method for treating "inches of Flight" as acceleration. Certainly, it's the only sensible method.

[Basil]

Terran Empire page 158 clearly shows that fusion reactors were created in 2149. Page 58 of TE says that Mars was colonized in 2093. I've only had the books a week and have not completely read them, so there might be more references I'm missing.

Hey, I've had my copies less time than that.
Actually, I missed the bit about fusion reactors because I didn't think "small" necessarily meant "You can fit it in a ship, easy."
BTW, Mars' date is not on page 58. That's all about the Security Police, diplomats, and like that. It's page 68.

I see the Senate as seeing Mars colonized in 2093 by the Earth Government and decided if they wanted more control then they needed new laws passed quickly. 11 years later they finally got the colony act. Then they started to make their move by colonizing outlying systems; Alpha Centauri being first as it's the closest.

Um, OK, maybe I missed something else, but in 2104, what's "the Senate" if it's not Earth's government?

[Basil]

Well, friction is the cause nevertheless. Interstellar space is not as empty as it would seem- it has, indeed, a very, very, very, very thin "atmosphere" of hydrogen and other gases. That does not matter normally, but when moving at the speed of light...

There is another, and surprising, mechanism for velocity loss in outer space. The interstellar gaseous medium is fairly ionized, that is, it is a plasma. Even that tenuous a plasma can be said to have a speed of sound. In our stellar "neighborhood", that speed is roughly 10,000 m/s. Any solid object going faster than that will cause a shock wave. In a plasma, that shockwave will accelerate electrons, causing synchrotron radiation.

If the object---or generation ship, to be specific---is not propelling itself (i.e., is not running its drive, but coasting), it will lose energy to the shockwave. That energy will be kinetic energy, and thus the ship will slow down.

Unfortunately, I have no info on how strong the deceleration will be, so I can't tell you if this will help Blue Jogger's scenario at all.

BTW, that ~10,000 m/s is ~3.3 * 10^-5 c. Which means getting to Alpha Centauri in mere centuries, instead of millennia, will require the drive to be running all the time you're in flight. At what level, I don't know; I hope at just-barely-on level, as the deceleration turns out to be minute, but still...

Oh, another thing; the ship's shockwave-caused synchrotron radiation has a non-thermal spectrum, and is strongly polarized; IOW it is highly distinctive. Should be detectable for a goodly distance. Which might be like waving a sign saying "Here we are!" to other spacefaring species. Which brings up a raft of story possibilities.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Oh, another thing; the ship's shockwave-caused synchrotron radiation has a non-thermal spectrum, and is strongly polarized; IOW it is highly distinctive. Should be detectable for a goodly distance. Which might be like waving a sign saying "Here we are!" to other spacefaring species. Which brings up a raft of story possibilities.

Hmmm...some good points there. There is one little thing I'd like to point out, though. The interstellar medium, on average, does not carry a charge (is not ionized). "Locally" (such a with a light-year or so of a star) it certainly is, but overall...nope. That's one reason the 21cm band is used for really long-range radio signal hunts.

I don't have the forumulas handy to figure out energy loss due to sync radiation, but my gut feeling is that while it might be enough to eventually slow a ship down, you'd be talking thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of years before you'd have a noticable drop in velocity.

[Southern Cross]

That seems logical enough.

[Trebuchet]

The fusion rocket of 2253 only gives a sustained speed of 570" per turn. That is a whopping 194 mph. I somehow think there is something between 194 mph and 1.2 LY per year.

I addressed this problem in my thread Pokey Starships? back in September. At the time I was mostly concerned with intrasystem speeds and how quickly one would move between planets. I see now it has implications on a much larger scale.

As I stated then, it's a bit disconcerting that a World War Two-era P-51 Mustang can blow the doors off Darth Vader's Tie Fighter.

I'd really like to see errata published to correct this problem. For the most point all it would require is Acceleration and/or Non-Combat Multiples over 124X.

[Blue Jogger]

Uh, I hate to rain on your parade, but by what mechanism is the excess velocity "bled off"? It's not like they're in an atmosphere where they'd loose velocity due to friction...

(Hiding the big box labelled rubber science in the corner)

Well, you see, the excess velocity is not really velocity in the classic sense, it actually a spacetime distortion simular in nature to the FTL drives. In fact, the first prototype FTL drives were nothing more than a way to generate this effect in a controlled fashion. This distortion also appears to protect the ship from normal dust and radiation that would occur if it was actually just travelled normally much less acclerated, which is why some primitive ships surrive their journey. Also, had it been a classical acceleration, the crew would have been crushed by the several Gs acceleration, besides being fried by radiation and turned into swiss cheese by cosmic dust traveling at near light speed against the ship.

Well, what happens at the solar system then?

Upon reaching a non dark-matter gravity well, such as a solar system, the distortion collapses in a non-localized fashion. What does that mean? The net result, the ship is violently ejected into what is commonly called "normal space" as a gravametric shear tears through part of the ship and a corresponding gravametric crunch occurs on the opposite side.

If you are extremely lucky, the distortion wears off slowly and the transition to "normal space" is effortless, the velocity seems to be magically bled off, but this is probably actually very rare, I haven't worked out the math. Much more likely, you continue on and the distortion suddenly bursts much like a soap bubble would.

"Bouncing" is a lost art, back when the principles of dark matter and FTL were theories and people were much bolder than today. But we've spend enough time on it, perhaps we should return to the safer and more proven methods of FTL travel.

EDIT: Thanks for everyones' comments, I think Steve's idea of the gravitional riptide influnced this explanation. Unfortuately, "bouncing" might indeed have too much rubber science in it.

[Basil]

Hmmm...some good points there. There is one little thing I'd like to point out, though. The interstellar medium, on average, does not carry a charge (is not ionized). "Locally" (such a with a light-year or so of a star) it certainly is, but overall...nope. That's one reason the 21cm band is used for really long-range radio signal hunts.

I don't have the forumulas handy to figure out energy loss due to sync radiation, but my gut feeling is that while it might be enough to eventually slow a ship down, you'd be talking thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of years before you'd have a noticable drop in velocity.

Oops. Misunderstood some notes I took from an article in a book by, I believe, Niven &/or Pournelle. Unfortunately it was a library book, so I don't have it to refer to. However, The Starflight Handbook mentions 10^5 ions/cubic meter as a typical interstellar medium. Which is a long way from "fairly ionized" as I first said, but still, it is ionized, and it will carry a shockwave.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Which is a long way from "fairly ionized" as I first said, but still, it is ionized, and it will carry a shockwave.

That's true, but it's so diffuse that you'd have to have one heck of a velocity (in the upper relativistic range) before it would begin to act significantly in that fashion. (shrug)

[Basil]

Ok now that I've had a chance to read more it all starts to make more sense. Solar Hero deals with the establishment of colonies within the solar system. Mars was the first to be established in 2093. The next year the United Nations became the United Earth Senate.

In 2104 the UES establishes the colony act which allows individual Earth Senators to have control of whatever colony worlds they wish to pay to establish. Over the next 4 decades colonies are established on Venus and various moons of Jupiter and Saturn. The colonist arrive at these distant locations by means of sleeper ships.

In 2203 the hyperdrive was created. This lead to the establishment of more Senate Worlds outside of the solar system. The first of these worlds was Alpha Centauri IV in 2214. From their other Senate Worlds are established on other planets. By the 24th century there are 91 Senate Worlds, which then leads into the Xenovore Wars.

There never were any Senate ships slowly creeping their way to Alpha Centauri or anywhere else until the hyperdrive was created. That's my current understanding of it anyway.

Thank you very, very much. That clarifies things, AFAICS.

I'll definitely have to get Solar Hero.
As soon as damaged copies go on sale. I can't afford HG books otherwise.