HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP!

[Yamo]

I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

1. Individual spells: Too expensive. Unless I load everything down with Limitations until it's weak and buggy as hell. I don't want ANY Limitations on my magic except Gestures and Incantations. I hate mages that feel like gimps because they're loaded down with -3 (or more) worth of Limitations on every spell. Energy Blast 8d6 with a decent AoE (what I would consider a good MID-POWER spell) is still a whopping 40 points with those Limitations. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Heroic character to save up 40 points? "Sure you can have a new spell...After ten more advantures!" And if you want to blow up castles with a gesture, summon demon lords, or turn an army into toads, you're just out of luck, unless you want to play a year or so in real time just to accumulate the experience to buy a single spell.

2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).

3. Elemental Control: Too expensive. It's the bit about the points in each slot having to at least equal the points in the base EC that make this unviable. Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game.

4. Variable Point Pool: Too expensive, too abusive, and too slow in play. Even if you limit it to only pre-approved spells, the "Cosmic" Advantages required to make it as useful as I'd like in combat still adds a massive +2 to the cost. How can I have a decent 100 point starting mage when basic proficiency with magic (say, a meager 20-point VPP) is going to run him 90 points? And improving it would take ages and probably just lead to the frustrated player giving up an leaving for a system where he can at gets better at magic on a regular basis.

If I go with a too expensive method, mages advance ridiculously slowly and are pathetic in a fight compared to their comrades (i.e. the warrior just bought All Combat CSLs with the 40 points you wasted on a AoE energy blast that won't even knock out most targets).

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask? HERO does everything either ridiculously fast or glacially slow and either way there's no balance whatsoever with non-Power-heavy characters.

IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?!

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by Yamo
I am doing CRAZY here. I simply cannot get a Fantasy HERO game going and I'm this close to just giving up. I just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

I have a Lumina Priestess built on 25 + 25 points. You can get spells cheap without going overboard. Of course I used a multipower but still...

Originally posted by Yamo
3. Elemental Control: Too expensive. It's the bit about the points in each slot having to at least equal the points in the base EC that make this unviable. Even at half price, spells with real costs over 40 or so are still too expensive to be practical in a Heroic game.

I think the solution is simple actually. You can give a -1 limitation to all Elemental Controls entitled "Magic". This limitation could be used in many ways. For example, Magic could be highly detectable. In my fantasy setting anyone who has fire magic knows when fire magic is being used nearby. (fire is one 6 elementals) This cuts the price of the EC in half and balances it out fairly well.

Another way to balance out spells is make them independent like weapons and armor. A mage can get them from research and doesn't pay points for them. You can balance it out by having them obtain perks like Access. Say 1 point of Access is worth 5 pts of Real points in spells. So if you wanted to have 6 30 active points spells it costs 36 points. They can lose the spells and regain them in game.

Just somethings to think about.

[mudpyr8]

Yamo, I used to be in the same boat. If you are willing to stretch the rules a little take a look at http://www.tekhed.com/hero/rulesindex.php

We've used these rules in a Cyberpunk setting and two current Fantasy games, and it is a lot of fun. Using this system, Hero is now our fantasy system of choice.

Feel free to email me with any questions you have about the system, especially if you find anything confusing.

I also encourage you to join one of my two sessions at Origins and GenCon using this system.

[mudpyr8]

In one of our current campaigns we have a 117pt Necromancer. I'm attaching his character sheet to give you some perspecitve. If you think this is an acceptable power level, then I think you might have a solution.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Yamo
So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something.

Hahahahahahahahaha that's a good one.

It seems to me that you are having trouble at least in part because you haven't specified what it is you are looking for. I would suggest writing up spells for sample mages at various stages (weak NPC, starting PC, mid-campaign PC, maxed out PC, master villain NPC, etc.). Don't write up the whole character (obviously you can't, yet), just focus on the spells. Once you have those down, you'll have some idea what it is you need to cram into your design space, and the right solution should hopefully present itself.

[lensman]

Originally posted by Yamo
II just can't find a satisfying way to do magic!

A too expensive method, and the opposite is true (i.e. the mage just bought four highly useful spells with the same 8 points the fighter wasted on his one puny CSL).

So, anyway, I'm this close to just saying "HERO doesn't work for fantasy. Period." and going back to D&D or something. What can I do? I just want a system where mages advance in magical power at about the same rate they do in most fantasy rpgs. Is that too much to ask?
IS THERE NO WAY TO BALANCE MAGES!!?!?!

Been there Yamo But what ever you do keep the faith. Back to D & D, Never.

So build in a curve. You want a system that maybe is easy to start with some diveristy of spells but not to powerful. then gradually get more spells with increasing power.

Here are some ideas that I have had either in concert with others or myself.

Start with a system that models how fighters start in Hero.
Make a series of spells that model the weapons groups of fighters, only with spells. Simply buy SF; ( spell familiarites) for Groups or uncommon spells.
As GM create spells that Require the limitations you wantwith active and real costs for balance, then create groups for them.
i.e.: Swords might be a HKA with 0 END adv, Maces might have +1 STUN mod, Pole arms would have Stretching,
Shielkds could add +1 to +3 Def or DCV, Bows could be RKA
Long Bows could have increased range, cRossbows could be bought with AP or Penetrating
or instead of straight analogs, you could add variations like
+ 3 -5 Lightning reflexes to spells , faster than any sword is the mind of a Mage, or change the effects to other effects such as Flash or Drain or Trandsfer

Try giving the Mages to adventure for Knowledge or objects that grant _1 limitations. If learned they could apply to a class type of Spells, single spell type, or single spell effect like Darkness or Spell SFX or in combination.
Same for Active points.


For multipowers just make a rule that all spells must be Multi slots You could also build in a mechanic Limit on the MP that
a double number of spells are requires at lower AP
I.e.: 8 spells at 40 active support 4 spells at 80 active which support 2 spells at 160 active. Or any steps you think work.
That way a MU could have a lot of lower spells like shield, dispel, detect, Rka, flight etc, running but when he wants a big effect he lowers his repitoire. Which works great for spells that are continuious or constant because he has to keep the slot there. As soon as he shifts away the spell ends

I really have not found a way to make Elemental control work yet , so I agree with you here.

you could use a VPP buy having the characterbuild a lot of spells before hand ,say on idex cards, then use a VPP to reflect the spells he has on hand without changing them by switching out spells by use of a spell book or other method.

Those are some of my ideas. Just think outside the box. but what ever you do make sure you have a way to explain to players that any system or rule or mechanic you create adds flavor to the game and is not just a way to &%$(* them.

[Yamo]

We've used these rules in a Cyberpunk setting and two current Fantasy games, and it is a lot of fun. Using this system, Hero is now our fantasy system of choice.

It looks interesting, but it's just too "house ruley" for me. I always maintain that if I need to do that much whole cloth additions and radical tweaking of a system, odds are there's already another system out there that does what I want out of the box without the inelegant kludges. I think I'm going to stick with all 100% "legal" stuff from FREd exclusively. No new Characteristics and so forth. If that's not workable, I'll just switch to another system.

It seems to me that you are having trouble at least in part because you haven't specified what it is you are looking for. I would suggest writing up spells for sample mages at various stages (weak NPC, starting PC, mid-campaign PC, maxed out PC, master villain NPC, etc.). Don't write up the whole character (obviously you can't, yet), just focus on the spells.

The problem isn't so much what I want to do as how hard it is to balance character that can do it with those that can't. Here's some example of attack spells:

Starting spell:

Fire Arrow: RKA 1d6+1 (20 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 13 points

Low/mid-power spell:

Mage Bolt: RKA 1d6, AVLD (defense is Power Defense; +1 1/2) (37 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 25 points

Mid-power spell:

Fireball: RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 40 points

High-power spell:

Lightning Storm: RKA 3d6, Indirect (always comes from the sky above; +1/2)), Area Of Effect (7" Radius, Selective Target; +1 1/4), (124 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Power: Only Outdoors (-1/2), Total Cost: 62 points

Ultra high-power spell:

Hellfire Vortex: RKA 4d6, NND (defense is any form of Desolidification or being a demon or other creature of Hell; +1), Does BODY (+1), Area Of Effect (18" Radius; +1) (240 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Total Cost: 160 points

In other words, the most powerful mages in the world can take out an army as easily as an apprentice mage can take out a goblin.

The problem is, it should take each of the four spellcasters that use these spells the same amount of time and effort to master each one, their abilities all being equal relative to the task in each case. In each case, it would ideally take no more than two or three game sessions. In HERO, using a "one spell = one Power" system, it might take literally years at the standard rates of experience gain for the ultra high-powered mage to learn Hellfire Vortex.

In D&D, for example, it tends to take a similar amount of time for a wizard character to advance to 18th level and add Wish to his spellbook as it did for him to advance to 2nd level and add Magic Missile. Sure, he needs a lot more experience points, but he's fighting tougher monsters, so the required quantity accumulates just as fast.

It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points. Not so in HERO. In HERO, if the Wish spell costs the wizard 200 points, it's just not fair to not also give 200 points to the fighter, even if this means making fighters in the campaign much more powerful than you intended. In D&D, the wizard can gain the Wish spell without the fighter increasing his power to the degree that he would in HERO if the point cost of the spell was awarded to both character in experience points and it's still balanced because the system is set up to make it so.

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

What's the solution?

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Yamo
2. Multipower: Too cheap by far. Beginning mages end up being able to buy effective spells for ridiculous costs (like one point for an Autofire RKA).

I think that Multipower is the way to go. However, you are going to have to exert control over how and when the multipower increases in power and when new spells can be added. Some sort of tiered system will probably work best, though the specifics will depend on the kind of game you are running. This is also a way to provide incentives to PCs to buy skills they might not otherwise feel are neccesary. Here is an example I just made up off the top of my head:

20 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 12-, (2) KS: Magic 12-, (3) Spell Research of 12-, (4) Have an INT of 13+

30 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 14-, (2) KS: Magic 14-, (3) Spell Research of 14-, (4) Have an INT of 18+, (5) be at least a 125 point character, (6) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

40 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 16-, (2) KS: Magic 16-, (3) Spell Research of 16-, (4) KS: Astrology 11- (5) Have an INT of 20+, (6) be at least a 150 point character, (7) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

50 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 18-, (2) KS: Magic 18-, (3) Spell Research of 18-, (4) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 11-, (5) KS: Astrology 13-, (6) Have an INT of 23+, (7) be at least a 175 point character, (8) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

60 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 20-, (2) KS: Magic 20-, (3) Spell Research of 20-, (4) KS: Golgor Convergence Theory 11-, (5) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 13-, (6) KS: Astrology 15-, (7) Have an INT of 25+, (8) be at least a 200 point character, (9) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power.

How you set the parameters for advancement are up to you, and will largely depend on the type of game that you are trying to run. Setting expensive standards for advancement to the next "level" will slow mages down. Making then relatively cheap will speed them up. You just need to find a way to control and limit the PC mages multipower without making seem like Gm fiat.

This set-up has always worked will for me for fighters, thieves, whatever. Giving a fighter a list of skills needed before he can go from +6 to +7 with his sword provides the GM the ability to effectively shape the charater, without seeming to be too intrusive. It does require a little work up front in creating a system of prerequisites, but I think it's worth it. And it's not like you come to GM in Hero and not be willing to do a little work creating your campaign anyway, right?

[mudpyr8]

I like Sbarron's idea. I've also seen proposed on the forums a system using VPP that requires the mage to find the spells and add them to his spellbook. You could easily mimic the D&D spell management system and once they are in the book, the mage can use them in his VPP. Only all the mage to change the VPP once a day, or 15 min per 10 active points, or whatever.

As for "house rules", Hero is the Gamer's Toolkit. It says so right on the cover. With GM permission, the "legality" of a particular power or solution is irrelivant. You need to determine what feel you want to have for your magic system. The reason I created my magic system is BECAUSE there weren't systems out there that worked the way I wanted them to. GURPS didn't, D&D didn't , Ars Magica didn't, Earthdawn didn't, RoleMaster didn't, Warhammer didn't, Talislanta didn't, Dark Age Mage didn't, and so on. Each magic system is creates a particular feel that is often inexorably tied to the game world. If I wanted just the right feel for my world I HAD to create my own. But creating a system from scratch is much more challenging than creating one from an existing framework like Hero.

It looks interesting, but it's just too "house ruley" for me. I always maintain that if I need to do that much whole cloth additions and radical tweaking of a system, odds are there's already another system out there that does what I want out of the box without the inelegant kludges. I think I'm going to stick with all 100% "legal" stuff from FREd exclusively. No new Characteristics and so forth. If that's not workable, I'll just switch to another system.

So, I would refute your odds that there is another system out there that does everything you want to do, there certainly wasn't for me. I also take some small offence that my system is an inelegant kludge, but potayto potahto. 100% legal is another issue, and I think you will find that rules lawyering isn't what Hero is all about, otherwise you may find yourself beating your head against the wall arguing about a -1/4 limitation or something equally minor. And, for the record, the characteristics I used were presented in previous editions of Fantasy Hero material so this is nothing new.

The strength of Hero is the ability to extend it. "To list is to limit" meaning it isn't a great idea to provide a rule for everything, much like our modern legal system. The GM is the one who determines the appropriateness or legality of a particular ruling, especially since context and setting have more impact on the rules than anything else.

My suggestion is to go with a VPP solution with some arbitrary limitations (ala Limited Power) that create the pacing you want. Just be careful with movement powers and defenses as they are very cheap and unbalancing.

[slaughterj]

I've had the same issues, and in the past used the spell colleges system (i.e., separate buy, lots o' limitations). One solution to "increasing" the cost of a MP, other than requiring the slots to be multi, is to require that each spell have to be learned before bought, i.e., a 2pt KS (or 1pt with Scholar?), in addition to buying the slot. This is not just an artificial cost increaser though, the skill would be useful in a several ways:
1. To research and develop related spells (use as a complementary skill)
2. To identify the same or similar spell being cast (lots of uses for this, like Spellcraft in D&D, know what the effect is going to be, know whether to "counter" it with a held action, etc.).
3. It represents "learned" magic, rather than Sorceror-style (think D&D) magic.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Yamo
It balances out, more or less, because the spells are arbitrarily "costed" within the system, not accounted for with objectively-measured points.

-edit-

In Heroic level HERO, however, the Power-heavy character will always cost exponentially more than the character that's all Characteristics, Talents, and CSLs. A 20th level D&D wizard might be a 1500 point-character easily (using the single spell = single Power system). A 20th level D&D fighter would be maybe 500 at most. Use something like a VPP, a Multipower, or an EC for the spells and you end up with a problem just as bad: Two 500-point characters, one of which is actually effectively a 1500-point one.

What's the solution?

You keep comparing things to D&D, so I'd just like to make a couple of observations. There is nothing balanced about D&D. At first level mages are largely useless, and fighters are neccesary to ensure party survival. At 20 level, the opposite is true. The only thing that keeps fighters useful at the higher levels is that they can protect the mage from attacks while they do their thing, and they have kewl magic items.

People don't create mages because they like sucking at first level. They make them so they can (hopefully) make it to 20th level. People create fighters to be good now, with the understanding that eventually the mages and the clerics will pass them buy in relative usefulness.

The description you made about the two 500 point characters, one that is really a 1500 pt mage and the other that is a fighter is pretty accurate. That's how it works in D&D. The only problem I see is that Hero demonstrates that discepancy. Finding a way to fix that is the problem. I don't think you can "fix" it in D&D. You obviously don't think that it is broken in D&D, and I'd tend to agree, if only because I understand going into a D&D game that that is the dynamic between wizards and fighters. In Hero (at least in theory), you don' t have to fix it. The points are balanced.

I think most peoples problems in Hero with mages and balance is trying to make low powered mages as powerful (not "as useful") as fighters at lower points totals. The power frameworks make this possible. However, as you have rightly pointed out, at the high end of the sprectrum these frameworks shift the bablance of power in the favor of the mage. I have never seen a 500 pt Fantasy Hero character. But I would bet that if you built the mage without a power framework, and just built a 500 pt fighter, things would be pretty balanced between the two. Maybe you would need to do away with NCM?

I'm not sure what all this means, but I think it is an interesting dicussion. I'll have to think about it some more and come back after lunch.

[C_Zeree]

Sbarron,

In your MP idea above, does the mage have to buy each of those MP's or are those simply the requirements before a player can pump another 10 XP into his multipower?

I assume the latter, but...

Always looking for interesting ideas, and the "reqirements" struck me as good campaign flavor.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Yamo
In other words, the most powerful mages in the world can take out an army as easily as an apprentice mage can take out a goblin.

Yamo, the implications of this statement make me wonder whether your assumptions about spellcasting might be at the root of your problem. This is a very D&D approach to mages, turning them into mobile artillery at higher levels. Virtually nowhere in source literature or legend does a mortal wizard have the capacity to just wave his hands, say a few words and wipe out an army; at best that's a capability reserved for the gods. Spells of that magnitude are certainly available to wizards of epic high fantasy, but they normally have a lot of conditions that limit their use: require elaborate apparatus, special materials, great concentration and skill to cast, time-consuming ceremonies, only function at a certain time or in a certain place, etc. That actually works much better from a story point of view, since it allows heroes opportunities to disrupt a casting the completion of which would spell their doom - gives 'em a chance to be heroic.

The D&D style "super mage" has always been considered to be the most unbalanced character class in the game, wimpy at low levels, overwhelming at high levels. D&D has tried to balance this by artificially weakening the mage's abilities in hand-to-hand combat and related areas, leaving magic as his main combat capability. HERO doesn't do that as a default; magicians can wear armor, use swords, have stealth-related skills, etc. They can be similar to other characters, except that they have other abilities that those characters don't have. Remember that all characters can get their weapons and armor for free in heroic-level games. From this point of view, HERO is supremely balanced for fantasy. It requires your spells to either cost a great deal if they're not heavily limited, so that your character's point cost reflects how much more powerful he is than non-spell casters; or else have enough Limitations on spells that their Real Cost is more in line with Skills and Talents available to non-magical characters. This was the model presented in the 4E version of Fantasy HERO, which I've followed for years and been quite satisfied with.

Having said all that, I realize that you may still prefer to go with a super mage type, which is completely your choice. So, as promised, here are a few suggestions more in line with your original request:

Go with the Multipower framework, but have separate Multipowers for different classes of spells: either a particular style or discipline (illusion, necromancy, divination, etc.) or spells with particular game effects (offensive, defensive, movement). People wanting spells in a certain category would have to buy a Multipower to at least the Active Points of the largest spell they want to use.

Another way to balance the Multipower appoach is to limit the total number of spells a character can have access to, to the number of points of a Characteristic that he has (probably INT), so that the character has to buy up his INT to increase the number of spells in addition to adding a Multipower slot.

Alternatively, the characters could have to buy a "Spell Research" skill which they must successfully use outside of game-session time in order to add a new spell to their repertoire. If the Research roll is modified by the Active Points in the spell being researched, the caster would have to invest more points in the Skill to successfully research powerful spells, and/ or take more time to research the spell which would slow the spellcaster's advancement.

Good luck, and don't give up on HERO for fantasy.

[keithcurtis]

Remember, just because a player has the points to buy something doesn't mean they should be allowed to do so. The fighter-type might have enough XP to buy 10 points of flight, but you wouldn't allow it because it is non-sensical within the game world. Limit spells likewise. Have a list of available spells. In order to learn new ones, the players must find, research or outright buy them with money. <I>Then</i> they can spend the points. If you go the research route, make it as difficult or expensive as you want the rarity of the spell to be. Perhaps 1 week for the first ten AP of the spell, then one month for a 20 AP spell and so on up the time chart. Adjust for suitability.

There are other ways to limit availability:
Maybe spells can only be learned at approved institutions of higher learning.
Maybe they can only be granted by the gods after a great service is performed.
Maybe each spell has only one teacher, or one discreet place where it can be learned. This could really promote cross-country travel.
Maybe a Wizard can only know a certain number of spells and to learn new ones, he must forget old ones.
Maybe magic is divided by types and a player can only learn a type for which he has spent a year of study. Or ten years.

I'm sure you can think of many more.
In closing, don't be afraid to impose a meta-game structure. That is, one which is imposed by GM fiat based on the world description and not supported by a game mechanic. None of the suggestions I have made should require any Power Limitation.

Keith "Magicologist" Curtis

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Yamo, the implications of this statement make me wonder whether your assumptions about spellcasting might be at the root of your problem. This is a very D&D approach to mages, turning them into mobile artillery at higher levels. Virtually nowhere in source literature or legend does a mortal wizard have the capacity to just wave his hands, say a few words and wipe out an army;

Pug

Sethra Lavode

But they're pretty exceptional.

Yamo did say he only wanted to require the limitations Gestures and Incantations. That being the case, a multipower might be the way to go. The slots are cheap but since they are only ever going to be -1/2, it's not so bad. Requiring that spell casters have Magic Skill to have spells in the first place is a good idea. The progressive background skills for higher point limit is a good idea along with something like 2xINT cap.