Baking your noodle

[Sean Waters]

Here's one I can't work out the right or wrong of:

If you have Images (touch), can they be used to operate a touch sensitive screen? I mean, presumably the screen can make a PER roll? Well, if it can, can't a switch? Or maybe knock over something light, like a vase...

Whilst my brain was bleeding over that I thought: No problemo, I just link in a 0 strength TK. Hang on...that'll would be free...and have no range...anyway 0 STR is probably too much, you can lift 25kg with that...

So:

1. Can Images touch activate a touch sensitive screen?

2. If not, how do you build the linked TK so that it works within the area of the Images?

[Sean Waters]

I know you shouldn't be able to actually touch anything with images, but if they trigger perception I see no real difference between an image operating a touch sensitive screen and an image operating a voice activated programme: sound is 'real' it is a vibration in the air, not some sort of mental illusion, so anything with a perception roll should be able to perceive the illusion, even if the illusion is of touch. Or am I wrong? Probably.

The TK point was not so much how you do it (link....) but:

1. How do you do a 0 strength TK? It just seems awkward making it a 5 STR and limiting it to 0 STR with a limitation: is there a better way?

2. A wider point: if you have 2 linked powers, the smaller will almost certainly have a shorter range. How do you deal with this? I suppose the fairest way is to say they have to use the same range, as you could otherwise, in effect, separate the larger one by firing past the range of the smaller one. Equally I suppose the range should be the shorter of the two. Is this how y'all do it?

[OddHat]

Remember that Fine Manipulation is a 10 point adder. If you want to type with your micro-TK, it will cost you at least 12 points.

[Kristopher]

There is a difference between Images and Mental Illusions.

One is an actual physical phenomenon, and the other is only in the target's head.

When using Images, a Sight Image should show up on cameras, a Sound Image should be heard over a remote microphone, and a Touch Image should activate any mechanical device that is sensitive to touch.

It does get into some interesting issues when one asks how hard a Touch Image can actually push. If there's a "solid hologram" (sight AND touch) of a giant granite pillar, how much shoving and punching from BrickMan can it resist?

[StGrimblefig]

If there's a "solid hologram" (sight AND touch) of a giant granite pillar, how much shoving and punching from BrickMan can it resist?

It is only an image of a pillar -- My guess is he would feel minimal resistance punching through it (and he would literally punch through it), but afterward it would still be standing -- it is just an image, it has no real substance. It also does not have to fall down when somebody punches through it -- the touch part of the image gives it just enough solidity to be able to feel a surface, not enough to withstand any punishment.

As for the original situation, I would say
touchscreen: yes
keyboard: no

Touchscreens need (and in fact require) minimal pressure. Keyboards have an intentional resistance that is used for tactile feedback.

...and if a PC started to abuse this, I would put lots of keypads in all villain strongholds.

[Lanith]

Edited for Length:So:

1. Can Images touch activate a touch sensitive screen?

2. If not, how do you build the linked TK so that it works within the area of the Images?

1. I would say the question is dependant on the "color" of your Images. If you telepathically put the Image in someone head. No, but other descriptions might work.

Just FYI, most "touch screens" don't care if you touch them or not. The sensors are located all around the screen and just pay attention to the realtive position of the heat source above the screen. ie: your finger

2. If I was to let a character have the Image (Touch) power useable on computers like that, I wouldn't make them spend the points on this unless they planned on using it in a game impacting way. If they just use it to look up info in the library or at home, fine it's free. If you want to hack through some binoculars from across the street you better spend some points.. and lots of em.

[pinecone]

You might be happier with a CE: 1 str of tk so it can cover the same area as the image...I personally think of touch images as having the toughness of surface tension ie: next to nothing for me touch images change textures of solid thigs very well but have no "substance" on their own......so a touch inclusive pillar of stone feels smooth and cool but you can pass your hand right through it...it's no more solid than fog....

[KA.]

Well, according to Fred:
"Images cannot cause any physical effects and are totally intangible (unless bought to affect the Touch Sense Group)."

To me, this means that:
a) Images cannot cause any physical effects
b) are totally intangible (unless bought to affect the Touch Sense Group)

I realize there is another interpretation possible, which is that the parenthetical text means that if you affect the Touch Group you can both cause physical effects and be tanglible, but I don't think that is the intention.

Perhaps this will help:

<img src=http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11807&stc=1>

Actually it is not completely relevant, I just find it funny.

This is a rather gray area, but if I had to rule, I would say no.
Mostly because, while the specific example is not clearly a violation, I think it leads in that direction.
If the images can set off a touch screen, what about something like a pressure sensitive treadle, like the kind the used to have to open grocery store doors?
It is also trying to "perceive" if something is touching it, and therefore could be fooled.
In that case, what about booby traps, land mines, etc. etc?
If would be pretty easy to just develop a set of Image Drones that would go through every situation ahead of you to test its safety.
While I don't think that is "wrong" or should be impossible to do in the game, I don't think it should be cheap and easy to do.
And I think that activating a touch screen, or a land mine, is "causing a physical effect".

KA.

[Rapier]

In that case, what about booby traps, land mines, etc. etc?
If would be pretty easy to just develop a set of Image Drones that would go through every situation ahead of you to test its safety.

That got me to thinking, total derail here, how would you go about creating a FH spell that was designed to activate all traps within say 3"?

[KA.]

That got me to thinking, total derail here, how would you go about creating a FH spell that was designed to activate all traps within say 3"?

Teleport, Useable as Attack, vs. a Party Member you didn't like?

KA.

[Blue Jogger]

That got me to thinking, total derail here, how would you go about creating a FH spell that was designed to activate all traps within say 3"?

Summon "25 point: Innocent Victim", At Range, (7 Active Points)

[Jhamin]

If the images can set off a touch screen, what about something like a pressure sensitive treadle, like the kind the used to have to open grocery store doors?
It is also trying to "perceive" if something is touching it, and therefore could be fooled.
In that case, what about booby traps, land mines, etc. etc?
If would be pretty easy to just develop a set of Image Drones that would go through every situation ahead of you to test its safety.
While I don't think that is "wrong" or should be impossible to do in the game, I don't think it should be cheap and easy to do.
And I think that activating a touch screen, or a land mine, is "causing a physical effect".

OK, lets look at it another way.

If you have a camera that fires a gun if it sees a person enter the room, will an image of that person set it off?
If so, then wouldn't a touch plate go off if it recieves an image of a touch?

If sound images make real sound, and sight images create real light (remember, thats how flashlights are supposed to be bought) then why can't touch images create real pressure?

Not TK, not weight, just pressure. I mean, what is the sense of touch if it is not sensing the quality and amount of pressure on your skin? And what good is an illusion of touch if it can't fool anything that responds to touch?

This obviously requires alot of GM supervision, but what Hero power doesn't?

[Jhamin]

It does get into some interesting issues when one asks how hard a Touch Image can actually push. If there's a "solid hologram" (sight AND touch) of a giant granite pillar, how much shoving and punching from BrickMan can it resist?

A touch image can't push at all. It can just feel like its pushing you.

If you shoot a sight image and it doesn't develop a hole then you can assume it is fake. If it looks like it has a hole in it you may continue to be fooled.

If you close your eyes and punch a touch image and don't feel it break you can assume it's fake. If you can feel it crumble you may be fooled.

If it is a sight and touch image it needs to fool both sense groups or you will assume it's fake. If it fools both you may assume its real.

If you try to lean on it you will fall through it regardless of whether you believe it's real or not.

[Rapier]

I would have to say that touch images could activate some things. It all depends on the amount of pressure to apply. I would not let images activate one of those plates in the supermarket that you have to step on (requires too much weight), but it could activate a motion sensor.

It is a pretty gray area though. If it starts to get concept creep I might require a TK purchase. Even then the TK purchase would be extremely cheap, with the fine manip it should only take half a dozen games at most before you could swing it.

[Jhamin]

I would not let images activate one of those plates in the supermarket that you have to step on (requires too much weight), but it could activate a motion sensor.

IMHO, I wouldn't let real world concerns get in the way.

In real life holography is a stunninlgy complex feat that is virtually impossible without extensive preperation and specialized eqipment. Yet in hero 20 points of images will let you do more than anything the possible in the real world.
I wouldn't try to rate points of sight images by watts of power or light intensity, and I would avoid bringing weights and measures into touch images.

Remember that a sight image can make you look like you got hit with a train. You don't take damage but it looks like you should have.
By the same token a touch image can make you feel like you got hit with a train. You still won't take damage but will feel like you should have.