Baking your noodle

[Jhamin]

I would have to say that touch images could activate some things. It all depends on the amount of pressure to apply. I would not let images activate one of those plates in the supermarket that you have to step on (requires too much weight), but it could activate a motion sensor.

It is a pretty gray area though. If it starts to get concept creep I might require a TK purchase. Even then the TK purchase would be extremely cheap, with the fine manip it should only take half a dozen games at most before you could swing it.

If you assume the pressure mat on a supermarket door opener is the special effect for the door's perception roll, then a touch image can make it think a 300lb man has walked across it, even if no one has.

As long as fooling people into feeling things they haven't is all the power is used for, I don't think TK is needed.

TK is for actually manipulating things. If you assume that a pressure mat on an automatic door is a physical object that has to be moved a set amount to activate then TK is needed.

As the power of touch images exists, I am assuming it is good for something. Therefore I tend to err toward the first option. The instant somebody tries to figure out the footpounds of their touch image and what that can to to an object it is time for TK.

[KA.]

This sounds like one of those "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound?" questions.
Except it isn't.
If a tree falls in the forest, it does in fact create sound waves.
It doesn't matter if no one is there to hear them or not.
Images, to me, are intended to be purely reactive.

If you look at one, you will see it.
If you reach out and touch one, you will feel it.
I know they are used to create Flashlights, but that to me is because they are showing you an "image" of what that area would look like if it were better lit.

But I think this is only intended for how well the image will fool your senses.
If you touch an image of fire, it will "feel" hot to you.
But if your hand was covered in gunpowder, it would not burst into flames, because there is no actual heat there, just the image of heat.

And I don't think an image of being hit by a train would cause you to feel like you had been hit by a train, if you mean that you would feel pain, etc.

I think that if someone cast a sight/touch image of that you had being hit by a train, and you were say, lying unconscious, then people who examined you would perceive you as bruised, bleeding, etc. Your clothes would feel torn, the blood would feel wet, broken bones would feel broken. But only to them, not to you.
That would require Mental Illusions.

I just don't what was described is the intended use of this power.

KA.

[OddHat]

This sounds like one of those "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make a sound?" questions.
Except it isn't.
If a tree falls in the forest, it does in fact create sound waves.
It doesn't matter if no one is there to hear them or not.
Images, to me, are intended to be purely reactive.

If you look at one, you will see it.
If you reach out and touch one, you will feel it.
I know they are used to create Flashlights, but that to me is because they are showing you an "image" of what that area would look like if it were better lit.

But I think this is only intended for how well the image will fool your senses.
If you touch an image of fire, it will "feel" hot to you.
But if your hand was covered in gunpowder, it would not burst into flames, because there is no actual heat there, just the image of heat.

And I don't think an image of being hit by a train would cause you to feel like you had been hit by a train, if you mean that you would feel pain, etc.

I think that if someone cast a sight/touch image of that you had being hit by a train, and you were say, lying unconscious, then people who examined you would perceive you as bruised, bleeding, etc. Your clothes would feel torn, the blood would feel wet, broken bones would feel broken. But only to them, not to you.
That would require Mental Illusions.

I just don't what was described is the intended use of this power.

KA.

I have to in-part disagree here. What you describe above is an example of why touch-group images are such a tricky power, and why special effects matter.

Images are used to create light rather than Change environment; from a mechanics point of view, that seems to have been done in a somewhat arbitrary fashio to keep CE from being used to grant positive effects. However, the net effect is that if your Sight Group images are described as a Flashlight then they are in fact creating real light. If your sound group images are described as a really good set of speakers, then you are creating real sound. Most Images can also be photographed and recorded by default (you need no special advantage or adder), and have no restrictions on classes of mind: Real light, real sound ... so now, how do your touch group images work?

If your Special Effect is "I stimulate the nerves of the target" or "halucination induced through subsonics", then your Touch Images probably exert no real pressure. If your Special Effect is "Magic" or "Cloud of Nanites" or "Solid Air", then there is pressure there, even if it's not enough to actually move anything.

This is a case where the SFX have to be used to guide your decision as GM.

[Batman]

My take on it is that these images are made of light...try putting a hand through a flashlight beam. Do you feel anything? No...just heat energy radiated in conjunction with the light beam. Since light is made up of wave particles that only take up a negligible amount of mass, it is inconsequential to debate about how "solid" the image is. It's just an image--put your hand through it and it'll come up the other end.

Therefore, you MIGHT be able to argue that a touch screen could pick up heat emanations from the image in question and work...but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Sean Waters]

My take on it is that these images are made of light...try putting a hand through a flashlight beam. Do you feel anything? No...just heat energy radiated in conjunction with the light beam. Since light is made up of wave particles that only take up a negligible amount of mass, it is inconsequential to debate about how "solid" the image is. It's just an image--put your hand through it and it'll come up the other end.

Therefore, you MIGHT be able to argue that a touch screen could pick up heat emanations from the image in question and work...but I wouldn't bet on it.

You can have images that effect,for instance, the sense of smell: you wouldn't be able to do that with light. A 'hologram' type image is a perfectly valid sfx, but doesn't fit every possible use of the power. Bakes your noodle, doesn't it?

[OddHat]

Bakes your noodle, doesn't it?

Only if you confuse the game mechanic with the SFX.

[KA.]

I have been thinking about this for a while.
My only confusion came from the text itself, because of one of those multi-part sentences that are so prone to cause trouble

"Images cannot cause any physical effects and are totally intangible (unless bought to affect the Touch Sense Group)."

As I said before, there is more than one way to read this.

So, just to get an official answer, I posted in the "5th Ed. Questions" Board.

Here is Steve's answer:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25058

which is basically "No, Images can't do things like that."

As usual, Steve's answer includes the concept that an individual GM can do what he wants in his own game, but at least I now know what the official ruling is.

And, that does not mean that there is no point in continuing the discussion.
Rules are like laws. First you see the need for change, then you hammer out the details, then you try to get your change made official.

But, for me, I don't have a problem with how things work now.

I guess I see it as the difference between active and reactive.
If I walk up to an Image that includes the Touch Group, and I reach out and touch it, then I will experience the effects. But it can't reach out and touch me. Even though some devices work on the principle of "Detect if something is touching me", I would not say that they are "touching" the thing they are trying to detect.
A fine point, but a point nevertheless.
If things like Touch screens are actually "reaching out" and "pushing against" things that are near them, to try to detect their presence, then wouldn't someone with a lot of Shrinking, and therefore very little mass, be "blown back" by their "push".

If you really want this construct to work, maybe the thing to do is design how a touch screen works in game terms. I don't think anyone is actually saying that they expect Images to be able to type on a manual typewriter, or flip light switches, or carry your luggage. So if things like touch screens are the real sticking point, why not build them as some sort of Detect or Sense that can be "fooled" by Images.

KA.

[Sean Waters]

If you really want this construct to work, maybe the thing to do is design how a touch screen works in game terms. I don't think anyone is actually saying that they expect Images to be able to type on a manual typewriter, or flip light switches, or carry your luggage. So if things like touch screens are the real sticking point, why not build them as some sort of Detect or Sense that can be "fooled" by Images.

KA.

They are built with touch, I'd have thought, so touch images should fool them, in the same way a sight image could 'fool' a camera, or a sound image 'fool' a microphone. I suppose the point is that is all they can do: they don't actually apply pressure, but do set off the sense, whoever or whatever has it.

[Agent X]

A touch image can't push at all. It can just feel like its pushing you.

A very good point. Touch Images will work against the touch screen because it is trying to sense touch. Contact by a Touch Image that isn't really pressing on anything with unmoving keys on a keyboard doesn't do anything.

There is nothing wrong with Touch Images triggering any device set to behave a certain way if it "senses" it's being touched. So, if Touch Images sets off too many of the villain's traps, the villain needs to figure out new traps and hooray for the heroes for a cheap, effective power. Honestly guys, are you really afraid the game will go to hell if touch screens and touch sensitive traps get triggered by this type of image?

Edit: Redundant post on my part - Damn, I thought I had read all the posts. Oh well.

[KA.]

They are built with touch, I'd have thought, so touch images should fool them, in the same way a sight image could 'fool' a camera, or a sound image 'fool' a microphone. I suppose the point is that is all they can do: they don't actually apply pressure, but do set off the sense, whoever or whatever has it.

I think I have finally gotten to the point of agreeing on this specific case.
Part of my original problem was that I was thinking of the average, real-world, touch screen.
The same way that an RKA bought as OAF Gun, is not going to behave exactly the same as a real gun (for one thing it will never run out of bullets, unless you add Charges), I see a difference between a "real world" touch screen, and a deliberately constructed Game World touch screen.

If you are talking about building something like this:
Detect Typing 15- (Touch Group), Discriminatory, Range, Rapid (x10) 20pts.

I would allow it.

I am not claiming to have a vast knowledge of the Enhanced Sense rules, but what I see this as buying is:
1) You Detect that something is Typing on the Touch Screen, based on the Touch Sense Group
2) It is Discriminatory - which means the Touch Screen can tell what key is being touched, not just like a big on/off switch where any touch is the same
3) Range - for my purposes this is vital. Even though the range would be minimal, I still think that the Touch Screen has to "reach out" to find the Images. The Images can't actually "touch" the screen, but if the screen is constantly sending out waves that are saying "is something there?" then it can be fooled.
4) Rapid - Unless you want to type really slowly, like one letter/phase, you need this.

Based on this type of construct, I would allow the Touch Screen thing to work.

However, I still would not allow land mines or door treadles to work, unless they were built similar to the above, which would make them so sensitive that a bird flying a couple of inches above them would set them off.

KA.