Do you use the Published characters as a baseline for you campaign?

[Hyper-Man]

More specifically,

Could any ONE member of your superteam at least distract someone like Grond away from innocent bystandards until the rest of your team showed up.

I bring up Grond since he is referred to as a baseline often and even was even updated in the Ultimate Brick. For a Very simple and early one shot adventure for a new group of gamers should Any member of the team be able to deal with an encounter with this big guy?

The old Spidey vs. Firelord thread got me thinking about this topic. I am not suggesting that they be able to actually win a fight. Just make sure nobody dies at the scene of the encounter.

Or, do most GM's here stay away from the published characters and/or use a large number of house rules that make them a hard campaign fit?

Comments Welcome!

HM

[phydaux]

Dude, you bring up published villains, and then you go straight to Grond?

If I were a player, I'd cry foul.

Now with that said, I have a martial artist who, with the right placement of skills and martial maneuvers, can pull off a 14 DCV with her Defensive Strike. Sure, her little 6D6 attack isn't going to have a PRAYER of hurting Grond, but she should be able to the "Stick-n-Move" dance long enough for help to arrive.

However, if Grond ever connects then she goes to zero BODY in one hit.

My power projector The Archer has Flashes and Entangles enough to keep Grond busy, and enough Swinging to star just out of Grond's reach.

My flying power projector, Quasar, could stay out of reach and rain Energy Blasts on Grond's body. But by himself, not enough STUN would get through Grond's ED to overcome his Recovery.

My Brick... would get pummeled. Into paste. Woundn't even stand a chance. But that's what happens when a 350 point brick fights a 410 point brick.

By Phase 6 my Mystic would have Grond thinking he was the Sugar Plum Fairy and make him dance The Nutcracker.

The ONLY chance the team would have to take Grond down (without the Mystic):

Martial Artist stays in Grond's face and taunts him with little girly-slaps (that character is female). The Archer and Quasar do Combined Attacks, Called Shot to the chest for X2 STUN, until he falls. The Brick can do crowd control.

[assault]

Could any ONE member of your superteam at least distract someone like Grond away from innocent bystandards until the rest of your team showed up.

I use Grond in the Hulk/Solomon Grundy role.

That means a single character _might_ be able to contain him until he gets bored and wanders off.

Then again, I'm not at all averse to giving him temporary power boosts that allow him to slap the whole group around.

Either way, I'm more likely to change his power level to suit the PCs rather than to change to PCs to suit him.

[Blue]

I don't use published characters as a baseline, I use my campaign limits as a baseline. So when I tell my players 80 Active Max on attacks (etc.) I can create my villains accordingly.

However I think I need to use more published villains. Mine don't stand up to that many people as well as HERO's do. (I've got 8 players.)

Ironically, I do use published characters for test-runs. I pull one out of the book and run it against a character sent to me to see if it will work.

I actually used Grond as one of three tests when I was testing out Anthem. She actually frustrated the hell out of him because her only "real" power is taking hits. So on the "could she delay grond 'til the team go there", absolutely She did however get mopped up my mentalists and decent entangles. But I kept the design because of the Grond thing

[phydaux]

Yeah, Grond would be fun for a one-off. He's powerful enough to give the PCs trouble, but if they fight smart they should be able to take him down in one turn.

But how often do PCs fight smart? I'd say it would be a lot of fun to see if the PCs cound contain him, and how long it would take for them to do it.

Are these all experienced RPG'ers? Are they all experienced Champions players? That makes a differance.

A lot depends on things like relative CV. Grond has a 10 CV in HtH, but just a 6 CV otherwise. Do the characters in your group with ranges attacks have OCVs at 14+? If so, then they are doing head shots on Grond every phase on an 11-. But it you allow a PC with a 14 OCV, you don't belong behind the GM Screen.

Does everyone in the team have the Teamwork skill? If so, then those Combined Attacks are going to start hitting Grond like Thor's Hammer. But if everyone spent the points on the Teamwork skill, then that's what SHOULD happen.

It ALSO depends on if the team has a Mentalist or not. Give me the right Mental or Adjustment powers and I'll turn Grond into Snoopy in two Action Phases. And THAT isn't much fun for the rest of the group.

Even without a Mentalist, three PCs can put Grond down with the right mix of skills and teamwork. It might even take a full Turn. If one character is a total Munchkin, then he might be able to take Grond down with just a little help from the others. Then his character sheet should be ritually burned.

Without teamwork a group of 5 or so PCs will eventually be able to take Grond down. But they'll get pummeled, and it will take all night.

And THAT usually makes for a fun RPG session.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't use published characters as a baseline, I use my campaign limits as a baseline. So when I tell my players 80 Active Max on attacks (etc.) I can create my villains accordingly.

However I think I need to use more published villains. Mine don't stand up to that many people as well as HERO's do. (I've got 8 players.)

Ironically, I do use published characters for test-runs. I pull one out of the book and run it against a character sent to me to see if it will work.

I actually used Grond as one of three tests when I was testing out Anthem. She actually frustrated the hell out of him because her only "real" power is taking hits. So on the "could she delay grond 'til the team go there", absolutely She did however get mopped up my mentalists and decent entangles. But I kept the design because of the Grond thing

Cool, I try to balance point caps with the range of abilities that the characters have. IMO, a brick with a 80 STR exceeds an 80 point cap since he can easily exceed 16d6 damage with a several base maneuvers (moveby and movethrough not to mention good ol' haymaker!). Grond is SO one dimensional and that is why I chose him for this hypothetical discussion.

Btw, I played in a pickup game a little over a year ago that started with a nearly random appearance of Grond. I had been so busy helping the other players create their characters I ran out of energy to build my own so I downloaded a straight speedster from the internet (not the HERO boards). My character got smashed with a car (while saving pedestrians) and the other 3 team members were barely able to subdue Grond without anyone getting killed or seriously injured (besides ME that is!).

HM

[proditor]

Yes and no. I do use them as a baseline in terms of getting a rough idea of what I might the PC's to be able to achieve at similar power levels. After that, it's all based on the campaign guidelines and the PC's themselves. The only hard fast rule I have in my campaign that is based on a published character is that no one is constantly as strong as Grond. Sure, Ripper can boost past him, and some of the PC's might be able to to at some point as well, but to rip off the Hulk. "GROND IS STRONGEST ONE OF ALL!!"

[Hyper-Man]

Yeah, Grond would be fun for a one-off. He's powerful enough to give the PCs trouble, but if they fight smart they should be able to take him down in one turn.

But how often do PCs fight smart? I'd say it would be a lot of fun to see if the PCs cound contain him, and how long it would take for them to do it.

Are these all experienced RPG'ers? Are they all experienced Champions players? That makes a differance.

A lot depends on things like relative CV. Grond has a 10 CV in HtH, but just a 6 CV otherwise. Do the characters in your group with ranges attacks have OCVs at 14+? If so, then they are doing head shots on Grond every phase on an 11-. But it you allow a PC with a 14 OCV, you don't belong behind the GM Screen.

Does everyone in the team have the Teamwork skill? If so, then those Combined Attacks are going to start hitting Grond like Thor's Hammer. But if everyone spent the points on the Teamwork skill, then that's what SHOULD happen.

It ALSO depends on if the team has a Mentalist or not. Give me the right Mental or Adjustment powers and I'll turn Grond into Snoopy in two Action Phases. And THAT isn't much fun for the rest of the group.

Even without a Mentalist, three PCs can put Grond down with the right mix of skills and teamwork. It might even take a full Turn. If one character is a total Munchkin, then he might be able to take Grond down with just a little help from the others. Then his character sheet should be ritually burned.

Without teamwork a group of 5 or so PCs will eventually be able to take Grond down. But they'll get pummeled, and it will take all night.

And THAT usually makes for a fun RPG session.

I wasn't really thinking about the level of player experience in general or HERO. I am thinking of using Grond as a shakedown cruise like Blue described.

HM

[phydaux]

And to answer your OTHER question, I use published villains A LOT. But my campaign takes place in the official Champs universe, so I use them for theflavor.

The only thing I don't use is the published Agents. Published Agents are wimps. MY Agents use MK VII Turtle Armor!

When I want to kick the PCs asses I use a home brewed villain team. Well, not REALLY home brewed - It's the Royal Flush Gang from Batman: Beyond.

[Hyper-Man]

Yes and no. I do use them as a baseline in terms of getting a rough idea of what I might the PC's to be able to achieve at similar power levels. After that, it's all based on the campaign guidelines and the PC's themselves. The only hard fast rule I have in my campaign that is based on a published character is that no one is constantly as strong as Grond. Sure, Ripper can boost past him, and some of the PC's might be able to to at some point as well, but to rip off the Hulk. "GROND IS STRONGEST ONE OF ALL!!"

Yeah, I agree that Grond should be the Top consistent STR guy around.

He's just Marvelous!

HM

[Hyper-Man]

And to answer your OTHER question, I use published villains A LOT. But my campaign takes place in the official Champs universe, so I use them for theflavor.

The only thing I don't use is the published Agents. Published Agents are wimps. MY Agents use MK VII Turtle Armor!

When I want to kick the PCs asses I use a home brewed villain team. Well, not REALLY home brewed - It's the Royal Flush Gang from Batman: Beyond.

Sweet, I never caught an episode of Batman: Beyond with them on it. Did you see the JL animated that had a version of them as well? Their powers were very close to those of the Teen Titans animated (and featured the very same voice actors I believe).

HM

[Trebuchet]

But it you allow a PC with a 14 OCV, you don't belong behind the GM Screen.

Since I happen to run a PC with a base OCV of 14 (43 DEX) prior to any martial maneuver bonuses and her two overall levels, that will come as a real disappointment to my GMs Mentor, Blackjack and El Tripon.

To answer the original thread topic, no we don't. We don't play in the CU, although we often poach suitable villains (usually with attending name changes) for our game. Most official villains are fairly wimpy unless you're talking about the big guns. Grond would probably never hit my character Zl'f in a "delay him" scenario without a couple really good rolls (because she'd be using Martial Block on all of Grond's Phases), but if he tags her even once it's all over. And with a 12d6 max attack Pushed I doubt she could hurt him either.

[phydaux]

I wasn't really thinking about the level of player experience in general or HERO. I am thinking of using Grond as a shakedown cruise like Blue described.

Then just keep in mind that your shaking down a 350 PC with a 410 point villain. I think Ogre would be a truer one-on-one test for a 350 point PC. But then I LOVE Ogre.

[phydaux]

Sweet, I never caught an episode of Batman: Beyond with them on it. Did you see the JL animated that had a version of them as well? Their powers were very close to those of the Teen Titans animated (and featured the very same voice actors I believe).

Yes, I saw that. While I enjoyed the episode and liked it, I didn't much care for that version of the Royal Flush Gang.

In Batman: Beyond they were jewel thieves who were all part of the same family.

Ace is an android - Basicly a Takes No Stun Brick
Jack is a Gageteer with all the the FU powers and some martial arts
King isn't [i[really[/i] a martial artist, but he has a sword that allows him Missile Deflection and a HUGE HA
Queen has a Scepter with an EB multipower.

There's suppose to be a Ten that was the "skills" character, but she was ALSO the "reluctant villian/love interest." In one episode she left the gang and went straight. In another the gang drew her back in, she got caught and went to jail.

[WhammeWhamme]

Cool, I try to balance point caps with the range of abilities that the characters have. IMO, a brick with a 80 STR exceeds an 80 point cap since he can easily exceed 16d6 damage with a several base maneuvers (moveby and movethrough not to mention good ol' haymaker!).

HM

Uhm... haymaker, anyone can do on anything, and Move By requires them to also have over 40" of movement.

Move through... you disallow Speedsters too? It's a pretty risky maneuver y'know.