Modern Firearms in Hero system

[Pappystein]

Hi Everyone,

I am wondering if anyone has given thought to a more enhanced damage model to firearms in Hero?

More to the point I have Dark Champions 4.2, Hero Rules 4.0 and 4.1 (second printing with some minor spelling errors fixed) Champions 4.2 and Hero 5 revised. In each I see what I feel are major flaws with the Gun combat system. Damage is based upon the Diameter/caliber of the bullet. There is no change for bullet type, ballistics or bullet velocity. While there is not a hyper exact science to Bullet Damage there is a lot more I feel we can do in the current system.

Has anyone already addressed these deficiencies or is this something that would be worth while for me to dive into?

TIA
Craig P
PS to give an idea of how far I have gone I have 10 distinct 9x19mm NATO/Parabelum bullets with 5 Barrel lengths each (50 total distinct rounds!)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Hi Pappystein -

Take a look at the new version of Dark Champions. It has vastly expanded coverage of modern firearms, with lots of different options, and might have useful info for you.

[Zeropoint]

Damage is based upon the Diameter/caliber of the bullet. There is no change for bullet type, ballistics or bullet velocity.

Demonstrably false. Per 5ER:

.22 Long Rifle: 1d6-1
.223: 2d6

.30 Luger: 1d6+1
.30-06: 2d6+1

.45 ACP: 2d6-1
.450 Magnum: 2.5d6

.50 Action Express: 2d6+1
.50 Browning Machine Gun: 3d6

Armor piercing bullets are represented, appropriately enough, with the Armor Piercing advantage. There is no good way to distinguish between hollowpoint, FMJ, lead round nose, semi-wadcutter, etc. because the Hero system lacks a "blowthrough" mechanic: ALL the damage from an attack is applied to the target, regardless of how much damage that is and how tough the target is.

I suppose you could use a +1 stun multiplier for hollowpoints.

Zeropoint

[pinecone]

The fearsome master of toads has done a bunch of stuff on bullets and firearms...you might check the old threads and the old board threads....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hi Everyone,

I am wondering if anyone has given thought to a more enhanced damage model to firearms in Hero?

[snip!]

Has anyone already addressed these deficiencies or is this something that would be worth while for me to dive into?

Warning:

DOWN THIS ROAD LIES MADNESS!!!

Many have tried to do this before and have met with fierce opposition from all fronts.

Considering that HERO has a very abstract way of determining damage, the system does an adequate job thus far and only minor tweaking is needed to get the feel right for what you intend firearms to do in your campaigns.
My suggestion is to hunt down the Energy to DC chart posted by many around here (you can find it on the Star Hero website, but the url escapes me at the moment) but this requires one to make the assumption that DC's have a logarithmic progression rather than a linear one (which there is much opposition to this line of thought as well).

Basically what it boils down to is that you have to decide how firearms perform in the system for yourself, and design them to your own specifications. Thats what most of us end up doing around here (well, those of us who are anal about these sorts of things, anyway)

[Lord Liaden]

Hi Pappystein -

Take a look at the new version of Dark Champions. It has vastly expanded coverage of modern firearms, with lots of different options, and might have useful info for you.

Agreed. Chapter Five of DC goes into great detail on different types of ammunition - that may be just the sort of thing that you're looking for.

Let me quote a passage from arcady's ENworld review of Dark Champions:

Most of the section is about the ammunition, covering all sorts of different bullets - how to build them in Hero and what they are meant for in the real world. A sidebar even covers a few fictional bullets - anti-vampire, blessed, silver, and more. Ammunition is in two subsections, one for bullets and one for shotguns - both with way more information than I personally ever considered. The charts for how different ammunitions change the point costs of guns are a little complicated and you will definitely want to read the instructions that precede them, they do however go into great detail and will let you figure it out even to the degree of having multiple clips with different sorts of ammunition.

[zornwil]

I think the various responses say anything I can say, but just wanted to welcome you to the boards, Pappystein!

[Zeropoint]

If my first post came across as either hostile or condescending, I apologize. Looking back on it, I can see that it didn't take quite the tone that I intended.

I have to agree with NuSoardGraphite: while the Hero system is overall a fairly "crunchy" system, the damage mechanics aren't really detailed enough to make it worthwhile to distinguish all the subtle differences between types of real-world ammo.

I will admit to a sort of morbid curiosity as to how you managed to get 50 different writeups for the same caliber to be distinct enough to be worthwhile yet similar enough to logically come from the same place.

Zeropoint

[Lord Liaden]

I think the various responses say anything I can say, but just wanted to welcome you to the boards, Pappystein!

Thank you for reminding me of my manners, Zorn.

Hail and well met, Pappystein! I hope you enjoy your stay in our little online community. Don't hesitate to pose any more questions you'd like our input on.

[zornwil]

Thank you for reminding me of my manners, Zorn.

Hail and well met, Pappystein! I hope you enjoy your stay in our little online community. Don't hesitate to pose any more questions you'd like our input on.

Oh, pshaw, at least you gave actual useful info! That's a welcome in itself.

[Rapier]

BAH! Burn the NOOB! BURN THE NOOB!




Sheesh. If you guys keep this up we are going to lose our reputation as a noob-destroying clique of Steve Long sycophants.

We gots a street-rep to maintain, peoples!

[Pappystein]

A) Thanks everyone for the Greetz! Hope I am able to contribute to this group as much as I have already gleaned.

B) Before I get into HOW I got what I have (mind you what I have is not fully tested/balanced YET) let me tell you WHY I do this. I am the kind of guy who has to take EVERY new toy he gets (Car, Computer, TV, Radio, RPG they are all the same to me), tear it apart and see what I can do to improve or do new things with it. Hero system is the first RPG I ever played (Hero 4.0 in 1991ish.) To me the Hero system is STILL the most flexible and real to life RPG out there. With that in mind I am now FINALY doing my best to reach the break point to find ways to try to improve the game. I am currently doing this with Harpoon 4.1 and Computer Harpoon3 (mostly new data but several new rules can be directly attributed to my work.) My work in this area is winding down. Since I just came off doing a major gun combat conversion of the now obsolete White Wolf system (Eg Vampire the Masquerade, Hunter the Reckoning etc) I feel I am uniquly suited to take on this as has already been stated daunting task. Anyway enough of the Ohh listen to me Soap Box! Let us get down to the nitty gritty.

C) HOW did I get over 50 possible 9x19mm Nato round combinations...
1) Gun combat Kinematics (super simplified with almost no math)
The same bullet fired from two different barrels will react
differently from one barrel to the next. Barrels are chosen for
Range, Controllability, Reaction time, and most importantly body
impact dynamics. I chose to currently offer a "Selection" of
barrels for small arms. The Barrel Lengths are 1-3" 3-6" 6-10"
10-17" 17-21" 22-26" and 26-30" . Bullets however have a range
of barrels that they work with and others that actually REDUCE
over all performance. For the 9x19mm NATO round I determined
that the 22" and above barrels are not useable as the barrel itself
will slow the bullet down (max pressure has been reached in the
volume of the barrel tube before the bullet exits the barrel.
2) Each type of bullet will do a differing amount of Physical damage
and Stun damage. A FMJ or TMJ bullet will tend to do the
average damage and stun of the group. AP Bullets tend to do
more body with less stun. Glassers, Wad cutters and any other
name you want to put on the JHP or JSP bullets (most all of the
fancy named bullets fall into these two categories in my
experience) do more stun than average and slightly less body but
have a reduced penetration level. Some bullets are categorized
as one type but fall into a different category in how they actually
do damage. The Russian 5.45x18mm PSM Pistol bullet is a prime
example of this. The tiny bullet (both power charge and size of
the physical shot) are classified as a FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) In
truth it should be classified as an AP round as it has a VERY
heavy Tungsten Core (similar to the Tungsten cores used in the
US M1A1 Abram's primary 120mm cannon!)
3) Special Power loadings disrupt and further add to the number of
separate bullet types needed to develop a full suite of Ammo.
The 9x19mm NATO round is a direct copy of the 9x19mm
Parabelum round from WWI and WWII Germany. The only
differences are a new shell casing to withstand higher pressure
loads, a new gunpowder to improve velocity and modern
production means (IE new ways to mass produce the weapon to
have less production caused variances from one round to the
next.) Likewise the 7.62x51mm NATO (also know as the 0.308
Winchester Magnum) is a direct modernization of the 7.62x64mm
30-06 shell from WW1 and WWII. This time the performance is
identical to the earlier loading in terms of range and hitting power,
the difference is a shorter cartridge that is lighter to carry. Now
days you can purchase 9x19mm NATO rounds that are rated for
+P or even more fearsome +P+. So you can buy your FMJ 9x19mm
NATO round as a 9x19mm NATO +P FMJ bullet. It will go farther,
work in longer barrels to the exclusion of shorter barrels, and do
more damage when it hits a target at the same range as the
standard 9x19mm NATO FMJ bullet.


Ok that is a LOT to take in. Needless to say I have some excellent source materials to base a lot of what I am doing on. Primary amongst them is a Firearm book that was designed with Role playing games in mind. The book (Published in 1991 I think) actually has Hero System 4.0 ed Gun damage in it for all calibers! The book is “The Compendium of Modern Firearms” by Kevin Dockery. Kevin is at my last look STILL employed by the US Secret Service as the Armorer (read Gunsmith) who is in charge of building the weapons used by the Presidential Protective detail (yes he builds up the guns used to protect the President of the United States.) In the book there are many ways of covering damage. Some translate via minor mathematical conversion (ok minor only if you have a super cool spreadsheet) to an “average” Body and an “Average” Stun for any given FMJ bullet from ANY GIVEN BARREL! Yes the damage models presented in this book alone are WELL worth the current purchase price on Amazon.com ($24 US used IIRC.)

I have not yet actually invested the time to play this out to the ultimate end (eg a Spreadsheet that only requires the entries of Bullet type, Barrel length, Muzzle Energy and Muzzle Velocity to figure out Damage classes) But as you can see if it will be received by the community I am more than willing to dive down that road.

As an aside I have currently built a small series of test weapons using various concepts and ideas on how to deal with differing types of ammunition and their use in a “real world” situation. Several of my players (3 of them to be exact) have “acquired” test weapons and are currently alpha testing them (unknowingly.) Results vs Viper were about were I would Hope to see them. They are now facing COIL (all new Characters for COIL based on an expanded campaign adventure.) I am expecting to have results in soon.


Sorry for the long response (and my very “whut iz Spulling? Grahnmer??? Nuver ‘eard of it” style of writing.) But without getting into all the math and research I have done I hope you can understand were I am going with all of this.

Again thanks for everyone’s kind words, plus the information I need to make my next decision in this process. Now it is time to drop a Force Wall in place, activate my FF, and put on my super cool armor suit *Ducks and covers*


Craig P

[Pappystein]

If my first post came across as either hostile or condescending, I apologize. Looking back on it, I can see that it didn't take quite the tone that I intended.

Bah and Rubbish I say! No you point was well made as far as I am concerned. Nor was it any different when I submitted some rather controversial new Data in the world of Guided weapon seekers for Harpoon reacently. But I digress...

I have to agree with NuSoardGraphite: while the Hero system is overall a fairly "crunchy" system, the damage mechanics aren't really detailed enough to make it worthwhile to distinguish all the subtle differences between types of real-world ammo.

I would tend to beg to differ on this point. As I explain in the super long reply here within, all bullets do two things. They Stun a person and they physicaly damage them (Body). When the Japaniese Self Defence Force had to engage the Red Brigade (I THINK whatever the Japaniese Based Pro Communist terrorist group was/is called) in the late 70s there were numerous of the "bad guys" who would take 5 or 6 9x19mm Nato FMJ bullets and keep on coming. I would not classify these guys as even compentent normals. FMJ Bullets just don't do all that much damage (yet it is what Militaries are limited to by the Genoeva convention).

I will admit to a sort of morbid curiosity as to how you managed to get 50 different writeups for the same caliber to be distinct enough to be worthwhile yet similar enough to logically come from the same place.

Zeropoint

Hmm Morbid...??? Thats OK. I wasn't expecting to win over a Billion converts with just a small blurb

A Given Gun has a fixed barrel lenght correct? A completely different gun has a different barrel, also correct? The same bullet will not do the same thing out of each barrel. I just break out the Barrels into like sizes (eg 6-10" lenght.) To go more detailed then that would require a book of boreing tables the size of the 5ed Revised Hero rule book! I do not have the time to create such a monster and to be honest within small ranges you will have similar performance. So a 9x19mm NATO FMJ bullet works in 5 Barrels (5) a 9x19mm NATO FMJ SS (Sub Sonic) works in 5 Barrels (10 total). a 9x19mm NATO JHP works in 5 barrels (15 total).... I think you get my point

After developing a moderatly viable mathmatical formula for damage classes the next hardest part is actualy keeping track of the hundreds of kinds of ammunition! I think there will be more math used to keep track of the various types of bullets than there will actualy be absorbed into the Damage class levels.


Who ever said I did things the easy way???

Thanks
Craig P

[Toadmaster]

Been there, done that but welcome to the club, the T-shirts are over there in the box.

Glad to have another gun nut on the board but before you spend to much time coming up with formulas and such I'd search the board, this has been discussed (even cussed and recussed) and many good ideas have been thrown around. Hope I don't sound like I am discouraging you I welcome new ideas into this area but you might as well look at what has been done so far, much of what you describe has been mentioned in one way or another.

While many poo-poo the idea of "realistic" gun combat in HERO there is plenty of room for improvement without making up alot of new rules, much can be done using the current rules in new ways. Piercing, reduced pen, AP, OCV, RMod, Stun mod, standard effect etc.

So let the games begin

Lock and Load

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hey, Toadmaster!

Long Time no See!