Mental Power Rules questions

[Kdansky]

Well, I got some rather lenghty questions: A character in my group is using a (costly) Telepathy, Mindscan, Mindcontrol in an EC. Now he (usually) uses the Mindscan to find his friends (whereever they may be), then contact them through Telepathy and then he will just communicate to them with it.

- Can his friends willingly not break out if they don't want to?
- As he does not pay end all the time, does the telepathy break when he's going to sleep/stunned/KOd?
- Can he have multiple telepathies open and talk to each one like in an IM conversation?
- Do his friends know who's trying to contact them so they can "let him in" (by lowering their EGO/ECV)?

Actually, these are all rules questions, but I suppose steve will take a far longer time answering them (and use difficult words :P)

[Kdansky]

Trouble is: Mind link is limited on the number of people you can contact, telepathy isn't. And you don't need to pay end at all, so communicating with many people is fairly easy (given time), you just open up a lot of "channels" and send thoughts as needed. As the character has telepathy to steal information too, we thought we would not need to bother to buy mindlink, because telepathy includes that anyway.

[Kdansky]

I think that's not correct, you don't need to reroll the ECV attack roll. And paying 4 end once for every target is not expensive at all... (Most characters could contact about 10 people without any recovery whatsoever, and if you take your 5 minutes to do it, there's 25 recoveries in between...)

[ghost-angel]

Here's the difference between Telepathy and Mind Link.

Telepathy is Instant, it ends at the end of the phase.
Telepathy is One Way, from Telepath to Target, there is no two-way communication.
Telepathy requires not only an Attack vs ECV but the correct level must be achieved on the Telepathy Roll in order for communication to occur.
Telepathy allows you read the other persons mind.
Telepathy only works on one mind at a time, unless the GM rules otherwise and either way you're limited to 2 Minds at once (per phase) since making the Telepathy Roll is a 1/2phase action.

Mind Link is Persistant, as long as either party wants it open it stays open.
Mind Link is Two Way, you can send thoughts back and forth.
Mind Link requires no Attack Roll or Effect Roll, but the target MUST be willing.
Mind Link does not allow you to read another persons mind.
Mind Link can be expanded to any number of minds (points willing).

If you want a Mentalist to be able to read thoughts or send thoughts you want Telepathy. If you want a Mentalist to be able to open communication links with other people you want Mind Link.

Let's look at costs.
Telepathy: 5pts/D6. If you assume a decent Telepath to be at 6D6 you're spending 30pts just for a strait Telepathy. You're average roll is 21 points of effect - and you can only use it Once Per Phase (using Telepathy ends the phase like any other type of 'attack' roll).

Mind Link: 5pts for one mind. 10 pts for a group, one at a time. 15 pts for anyone, one at a time. For the same 30pts you can establish Mind Link with Any 8 Willing Minds/Targets at once.

Now END.
Telepathy costs END. Mind Link does not.

Telepathy works on an unconcious character (per the description) but the User must be awake to use it.
Mind Link, being Persistant, normally stays on when the User is unconcious unless they switch it off first, but they can't transmit across it.

from your first post, I think what you really want is Mind Link, not Telepathy.

[Kdansky]

Actually, I'll need both then But thanks for clearing things up.

[ghost-angel]

Actually, I'll need both then But thanks for clearing things up.

no problem.

[Kristopher]

Is Telepathy only one way? I thought Telepathy could be used to transmit thoughts to the target...and all the target would have to do to answer is "think in words".

[Kdansky]

I've checked the BBB (which I have laying around, FRED is @ friends):

TELEPATHY
A character with this Mental Power can read or send thoughts. Each 1d6 of Telepathy costs 5 points.

Well, seems that is wrong.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, we appear to have a few differing opinions about how Mental Powers work under Fifth Edition rules, so I've broken out my copy of the 5E rulebook and the FAQ to look for firsthand info:

- Can his friends willingly not break out if they don't want to?

I couldn't find a specific answer on this; Breakout Rolls are described as "subconscious and take no time." (5E p. 79) However, since a character can voluntarily lower his ECV and Mental Defense to make it easier for a friendly mentalist to "lock on," I'm inclined to say Yes. I'll be glad to be corrected by someone with a specific reference.

- As he does not pay end all the time, does the telepathy break when he's going to sleep/stunned/KOd?

On this the rules for Mental Powers are quite specific: once a character has established a given level of effect with a Mental Power, that Power continues to affect the target even if the mentalist is Stunned or Knocked Out, until the target of the Mental Power makes a successful Breakout Roll. Mind Scan is the exception to this - as a Constant Power the mentalist must actively maintain it. (5E p. 79)

- Can he have multiple telepathies open and talk to each one like in an IM conversation?

Once a Mental Power has been established on one target, the mentalist can make successive Attack Rolls on his Phases on other targets without losing the initial contact, as long as he pays END for each attack. So, it sounds like he can maintain a mental party line.

BTW the description of Telepathy makes repeated mention of "sending and receiving thoughts," in fact that's stated specifically under the Limitation for Telepathy, "Broadcast Only; Receive Only." (5E p. 149) This state of affairs appears to remain in effect until a successful Breakout Roll is made by the target, or the mentalist attempts to change the level of effect for his Telepathy.

- Do his friends know who's trying to contact them so they can "let him in" (by lowering their EGO/ECV)?

Hmm... looks like this may be a GM judgement call. The Mental Power descriptions repeatedly state that a target who is aware of a Mental Power being used on him can sense the "source" of the attack, but not how specific that sense is, i.e. the identity of the specific attacker. Personally if the mentalist is a familiar mind to the target of the Telepathy I'd be inclined to let the target recognize him.

Moreover, the rules for Telepathy state that the awareness of the source of the target "usually occurs after the Power no longer affects the target." (5E p. 80) The operative word here is "usually" - again, if I were the GM I'd let the mentalist's friends recognize him right away.

[Lord Liaden]

I did a little further FAQ research into the "source" of Mental Power attacks. As the default they appear to function only in regard to the location of the attacker, not specific identity. In most cases that requires that the subject of the attack be able to perceive the attacker with a given sense, as in "he's in that crowd over there;" for Mind Scan the subject would have a general impression of the location of the attacker.

I also found that someone can voluntarily lower their EGO score to reduce the chance of Breaking Out of a Mental Power, just as they can choose to use less STR to break out of a Grab (subject to GM approval). Couldn't find whether they can avoid rolling for Breakout altogether, though.

These are all in the FAQ under "Mental Powers."

[Lord Liaden]

Lord Liaden's reply just goes to emphasize why I dislike how mental powers work in the game. Telepathy, a 5 point per 1d6 power, is basically granted a constant, 0 endurance, persistent effect and totally negates any reason for a player to purchase mind link. One power should not supersede the use of another that is built for the specific purpose, IMO.

I would think if you are going to maintain a constant effect on someone, such as open telepathic communication, that you should be required to pay the endurance each phase.

While I understand your reservations, MitchellS, looking at the rules for Mind Link I note that there are some significant differences between it and Telepathy. A person establishing Mind Link doesn't have to roll for effect; the basic 5 pt. Power gives you contact whatever the subject's EGO. With the appropriate Adder you can also eliminate the need for Line of Sight to the target.

Checking the FAQ for Mind Link, you'll find that as an inherently 0-END Power, ML is by default Invisible to other characters with Mental Powers or Mental Awareness. Also a person who is connected to someone who is maintaining a group Mind Link can "hear" and "speak to" anyone else linked within the group, rather than having to go through the individual with the Mind Link Power.

[Sean Waters]

My understanding is that if you want to be effected by a power then you don't have to use any defence, which to my mind would include breakout rolls. Moreover, even if you have high EGO you don't need to use it, so 1 dice of telepathy would be enough for communitation with a willing subject. For simple one to one communication with someone you can see then you probably don't need mind link too.

If you want to communicate with someone you can not see, mind link may be better: you don't need LOS, so you don't need mind scan. It can act as a conference call; telepathy can too but it is slower as it all has to be routed through the telepath, and i would rule that the target (unless they have mental awareness and can 'read' the power signature) has nothing to fear from accepting a call from a mind link: powers can not be used offensively through the link, and someone mind linked to you can only learn what you specifically tell them. If you accept a telepathy call, you could be letting in an enemy who could steal your thoughts.

QUESTIONS:

If someone has dropped mental defences to let a friendly telepath in then are they 'open' to other mental attacks until they re-instate the defences?

Can you drop your mental defences for only one power: if someone wants to communicate with telepathy whilst you are under attack by a mind control can you let the telepathy in and not the MC? Maybe not.

Kdansky, you may want to have a villain masquerade as the PC in order to get another player to drop their mental defences and leave theri brain open to plunder. Might make buying Mind Link more attractive....

[Lord Liaden]

My understanding is that if you want to be effected by a power then you don't have to use any defence, which to my mind would include breakout rolls. Moreover, even if you have high EGO you don't need to use it, so 1 dice of telepathy would be enough for communitation with a willing subject. For simple one to one communication with someone you can see then you probably don't need mind link too.

If you want to communicate with someone you can not see, mind link may be better: you don't need LOS, so you don't need mind scan. It can act as a conference call; telepathy can too but it is slower as it all has to be routed through the telepath, and i would rule that the target (unless they have mental awareness and can 'read' the power signature) has nothing to fear from accepting a call from a mind link: powers can not be used offensively through the link, and someone mind linked to you can only learn what you specifically tell them. If you accept a telepathy call, you could be letting in an enemy who could steal your thoughts.

Unfortunately, according to the description of Mind Link in the rulebook, you can use other Mental Powers through it. It's just that if you're used to receiving a Mind Link from someone you know you usually accept it without fear, and if you're not used to being Mind Linked you don't accept it at all. That minimizes the risk of letting yourself be Linked, although trickery is still possible.

QUESTIONS:

If someone has dropped mental defences to let a friendly telepath in then are they 'open' to other mental attacks until they re-instate the defences?

Can you drop your mental defences for only one power: if someone wants to communicate with telepathy whilst you are under attack by a mind control can you let the telepathy in and not the MC? Maybe not.

Kdansky, you may want to have a villain masquerade as the PC in order to get another player to drop their mental defences and leave theri brain open to plunder. Might make buying Mind Link more attractive....

From my reading of the rules I personally would say "Yes" to the first and "No" to the second. Actually I think we've raised enough issues here that a post to Steve on the "Rules Question" forum would be warranted for someone who wants official answers.

[Sean Waters]

Thank you LL for looking that up: haven't got the book with me...

I think I might define Mind Link as coming with a mental signature, readable before accepting (like caller ID on my phone) even by the non-psychic, assuming that they have previously encountered it, which will help to differentiate mind link and telepathy. You could probably set up a false signature (images or shapeshift against mental sense group), but it wouldn't be something any old psychic could do.

Also I suppose the advantage of Mind Link to the recipient is that ANY party to the link can shut it off: not so with telepathy.

I think Mind Link is useful and has a place, even if there may be little point in buying it if you have telepathy already.

ONE MORE QUESTION:

I voluntarily lower my mental defences to allow ThoughtThief to communicate telepathically with me (I know: the name should have been a give away...but I have gullible (Psych Lim, common, strong)). He gets to the EGO + 30 level (he rolled 30). I then sense him trying to read my thoughts and slam my defences back up. I have EGO 20 and 20 points of mental defence. A was acting as if I had EGO 0 and no mental defence. What happens to the telepathy?

1. It remains in place at the EGO + 30 level
1.a ...but you get a new breakout roll based on the 'new' defences
2. It remains in place at the EGO + 10 level
2.a ...but you get a new breakout roll based on the 'new' defences
3. It is automatically broken as he would have needed at least 40 points of effect to get me at all with defences up
4. Something else

I think I favour 2.a, personally.

[zornwil]

That's a good/tricky question, TRL.

I believe I would rule that he gets one phase of Telepathy into the character, but once the character puts the EGO and Defenses up he suffers the loss completely as the 20 MD should deduct then and it goes against the 20 EGO. So basically 1 phase is 1., then the next phase is 3.