When do you Abort?

[Menexenus]

Hello all. Here's my third rules question. Yesterday was our third game session. Our 4 characters were fighting Gigaton. He shot a blast at my character, so I told the GM that I was Aborting to Dodge. He said OK and then explained that the blast had an area affect. So I said, "Oh, in that case, I'll Abort to Dive for Cover." Then the GM said, "Nope, it's too late. You saw the blast coming at you and Aborted to Dodge. You can't change your mind now that you know what the blast does!"

Does this sound right to the rest of you? What it boils down to, I guess, is when a player needs to make the decision to Abort. Do you Abort when you see the attack coming (and before you know what the attack's effects are), or do you choose whether and how to Abort once you know what the effect of the attack is? I thought it was the latter, but I couldn't find anything in the rulebook to back me up.

Ok, here's where I acknowledge that part of what my GM is saying makes sense. After all, my character had never seen Gigaton before. So I had no way of knowing what his blast might do. Still, though, it seems pretty harsh to force me to waste my next action for no effect...

What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

P.S. If you want to know more about how my GM adjudicated the situation, after we had seen a few of Gigaton's blasts, the GM gave us a Perception roll to see if we could determine what kind of blast was coming at us before making the Abort decision.

[Blue]

GM's call in this case. All a GM really has to do is describe the special FX as they come at you. A kind GM will tell you that the blast is branching out over an area. An overly-competitive GM will only tell you that he's firing at you, then ask what do you want to do.

Either one, near as I can tell is accurate. I just tend to do the one that favors the player. Here's why:

Aside from the many "it's more fun for you guys" reasons, there's this one: The GM is not going to have that consideration going the other way. If you said, I'm going to fire a power at him, the GM would demand to know what power; He wouldn't simply say, okay the villain is aborting to dodge. Then he'd make the decision on what the villain is doing.

So you are at a disadvantage the way he's doing it.

[Blue Jogger]

We had problems in our game when we Abort, whether we knew enough to Dive for Cover or Dodge.

Usually, in our games, the GM tells the person when he starts to Abort (assuming he hasn't already acted that phase) whether the attack is one where Dodging or Dive for Cover is correct.

GM: "He's about to hit you with his blaster."
Player: "I dodge."
GM: "It's an area effect weapon, you'll have to Dive for Cover."
Player: "I dive for cover."

Now, it can be a little tricky, because the character may not know enough information. If a blaster was used several times on a tight beam and then he clicks to area effect (or just the first shot of a new weapon), the character might not know to dive for cover instead of dodging. In which case, a perception roll (with minuses) or a tactics rolls might be in order.

GM: "He raises his blaster at you, again, is about to fire, again."
Player: "I dodge."
GM: "Make a Perception roll by 3."
Player: "I rolled a 15, missed by 4."
GM: "You fail to notice that this shot is area effect."
Player: "Aaaaaggh!"

[Champsguy]

Simple answer: Your GM is a cock. Smack him with a hammer and tell him to run the game better.

[Talon]

This is a common issue and debates have raged over it for years. The GM is within his rights to do it this way, but if he doesn't do the same for the NPCs you should call him on it big time.

The "jerk response" is to play a character with two attacks with identical SFX, one of which is area of effect, the other of which is not.

[MikeyMitchell]

Hello all. Here's my third rules question. Yesterday was our third game session. Our 4 characters were fighting Gigaton. He shot a blast at my character, so I told the GM that I was Aborting to Dodge. He said OK and then explained that the blast had an area affect. So I said, "Oh, in that case, I'll Abort to Dive for Cover." Then the GM said, "Nope, it's too late. You saw the blast coming at you and Aborted to Dodge. You can't change your mind now that you know what the blast does!"

Does this sound right to the rest of you? What it boils down to, I guess, is when a player needs to make the decision to Abort. Do you Abort when you see the attack coming (and before you know what the attack's effects are), or do you choose whether and how to Abort once you know what the effect of the attack is? I thought it was the latter, but I couldn't find anything in the rulebook to back me up.

Ok, here's where I acknowledge that part of what my GM is saying makes sense. After all, my character had never seen Gigaton before. So I had no way of knowing what his blast might do. Still, though, it seems pretty harsh to force me to waste my next action for no effect...

What do you guys think?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

P.S. If you want to know more about how my GM adjudicated the situation, after we had seen a few of Gigaton's blasts, the GM gave us a Perception roll to see if we could determine what kind of blast was coming at us before making the Abort decision.

In the comics, you will occasionally see situations where a character dodges a projectile, only to have the thing explode behind him and get him anyway. This may be what your GM is trying to simulate. He's also apparently trying to say, "Your character has never seen this power before, so how would he know whether it's AE or not?" The notion of a PER roll to tell the difference tends to bear this out. He's within his sphere to handle it like this, certainly; it kind of falls into the realm of "mystery powers" and enforces on the characters things that they wouldn't know simply because their player does.

However, it's something of a butthole move unless he does it equally for villains you're fighting, or if he does it very frequently. Doing it all the time like that will get irritating really fast. It's just not very "heroic" to play "screw the character over because he aborted to the wrong move" - especially if the character is one whose primary defense is getting out of the way.

In my games, I normally let the players know when it's an AE or Explosion attack, unless it's obvious that the attack type would be hard to differentiate or they've never seen it before. Launching a grenade from Ankylosaur's tail is probably an AE or Explosion effect, so the SFX would make it pretty obvious. It's a bit more difficult to tell with a villain they've never seen before with inherent powers.

To make a long story short: He's within the rules, he's within his scope as a GM to handle it that way. However, it's not something that should be done very often, just because of the pure annoyance value it has for the players. Just my $0.02.<BR><BR>

[lemming]

I don't like GMs who pull that, but at least he's letting you learn what type of blast is coming later. It's not my style though. I let the PC know what's coming. Pretty much the character is trying to get out of the way as the SFX and I'll let the better option be the game mechanic

[bluegodjanus]

Usually, in our games, the GM tells the person when he starts to Abort (assuming he hasn't already acted that phase) whether the attack is one where Dodging or Dive for Cover is correct.

GM: "He's about to hit you with his blaster."
Player: "I dodge."
GM: "It's an area effect weapon, you'll have to Dive for Cover."
Player: "I dive for cover."

I think this is how I'd usually handle it. I feel it's more like I'm working with the players to make a fun game.

[TheEmerged]

My rule of thumb is to require an INT/PER/KS roll in cases where there's a question as to whether or not the player has the info they need. I usually make it "blind" (that is, I'm rolling it behind the screen).

Of course, I'm from the "skills should matter" school of thought too, so someone from the "11- represents a professional level of skill" school would probably feel differently.

[Hugh Neilson]

For me, the issue is whether the GM will play the same approach with the villains. Will he decide whether the villain aborts and how before knowing whether your attack is AoE? A reasonable question to ask out of game to set what the rule will be for future.

FWIW, within those parameters, I like the GM's approach. If I tell you it's area of effect, do you also get to know how many hexes it will affect (otherwise you may dive 3 hexes when the blast fills 5 and still abort with no benefit).

[Hyper-Man]

This is a perfect example of where it pays to describe what your character is trying to accomplish instead of what game effect he specifically uses.

GM "Gigaton fires a bolt of energy at you. What do you do?"
Player "I try to get out of the way"

At this point it is the GM's responsibility to adjudicate the rules correctly.

If Gigaton is using an AOE attack it is reasonable to assume that he is targeting your character's hex (DCV 3) instead of your character directly. I would further argue that your character should be able to tell this difference before commiting to either Dodge or Dive For Cover.

HM

[Hyper-Man]

For me, the issue is whether the GM will play the same approach with the villains. Will he decide whether the villain aborts and how before knowing whether your attack is AoE? A reasonable question to ask out of game to set what the rule will be for future.

FWIW, within those parameters, I like the GM's approach. If I tell you it's area of effect, do you also get to know how many hexes it will affect (otherwise you may dive 3 hexes when the blast fills 5 and still abort with no benefit).

This is where KS: Known Supers might come in handy. It is reasonable that a one time use of the power would force guess work on the defender's part (with regard to AOE attacks) if the attacker is not generally known for such an ability but future engagements should be in your favor since you have seen the different special effects of his various attacks.

I guess it is assumed that the AOE attack in question was AOE Radius and not Cone since by its very nature Cone would be recognized as AOE as soon as its fired (unlike a hand grenade).

HM

[Dust Raven]

Technically, the GM is within his rights to make that ruling, but I probably wouldn't have made the same one.

Since CKC doesn't describe Gigaton's SFX, the GM could have said all of his various blasts look alike, so there's no way to tell which one he's firing. Personally, I'd have each one look different, but either way is technically legal.

If you don't like the ruling, talk to your GM about it and tell him what you don't like about it. If he yeilds and changes things, great! If he doesn't, buy some Levels with Dive For Cover (2 point Levels if he allows that, 5 point Levels with All DEX Rolls with a Limitation, Only For Dive For Cover if he doesn't). Dive For Cover works great when you are in a group versus a single or few opponents. You might be left at 1/2 DCV until your next Phase, but the rest of the team can cover you until you get back up. If your character's concept allows for it, also consider the Flying Dodge Martial Maneuver from UMA. +4 DCV and up to a Full Move when you abort, and no DEX Roll or going prone.

[Champsguy]

The GM is within his rights to make that ruling. You're within your rights to slash his tires and tell him that he can find himself new players. Being a GM doesn't make you God. It makes you the guy who everyone decided to trust enough to be fair. If he's not being fair, he shouldn't be GMing. You can't run a game with no players.

[Phil]

My first thought was that your GM was being an arse. Having thought, actually I think he's right IF it's a first time foe and IF you said Dodge because you wanted to Dodge, not because you said Dodge when you actually meant Dive for Cover all along. It's fine, it's in genre and you'll know for next time.

However, it does raise a question. A dive for cover involves throwing yourself out of the way of an attack. Surely that's a Dodge as well. But a Dodge is not also a Dive for Cover. So, it naturally follows that if a Dive for Cover encompasses a Dodge and a Dive, it ought to have some penalty to stop you doing it all the time. E.g. you're now prone and must spend 1/2 phase getting up. Do other GMs enforce this?