When do you Abort?

[TheEmerged]

I've been looking for a better way to mitigate the DFC vs single attack with high OCV issue myself. My current pet mechanic is further penalizing the DFC roll if the attacker has a significant OCV advantage; the trick is finding a working ratio. 1 for 1 seems too high unless your GM is as funny about the CV range as I am, but anything higher than -1 for 2 points of difference might as well not be a factor.

[Champsguy]

Your example disregards speed.
Assuming that the 20 OCV character has the same or higher SPD than the defender, say 6, the attacker could in theory delay a phase and then fire his attack on phase 5 to prompt an abort to dive for cover and then again on phase 6 now vs. a half DCV 18 DEX character who cannot abort again.

This might be considered metagaming but is no more so than using dive for cover (an optional rule) against non-area affect attacks so I would allow it.

Well, no, because what if the defender holds his action as well?

There are a lot of combat maneuvers that can change things up a bit, but I just don't see the point of it. Why would you ever block or dodge when you could dive for cover?

[Hugh Neilson]

There are a lot of combat maneuvers that can change things up a bit, but I just don't see the point of it. Why would you ever block or dodge when you could dive for cover?

So you can avoid being prone and get the bonus (multiple blocks or bonus DCV from Dodge) against more than one attacker. That said, I don't like "dive for cover" versus a one-target attack either (unless, as you ote earlier, there is actually some cover to dive for).

[zornwil]

I'm pretty much with Blue. However, I can see a couple circumstances where I'd certainly side with the GM, where this is the villain's schtick, it's what he does, in which case the AoE is intended to possess a sort of IPE as Blue mentions (although this really is kind of the same).

Although I wouldn't say that IPE is nearly as costly as regular IPE, like half value, maybe less.

[Dust Raven]

Well, no, because what if the defender holds his action as well?

There are a lot of combat maneuvers that can change things up a bit, but I just don't see the point of it. Why would you ever block or dodge when you could dive for cover?

The game's not perfect, but it is rather close. Most characters that can manage a 20 OCV are likely to have a MUCH highter SPD than a lower DEX character, even if that OCV came from levels. If the DEX and SPD are close, and it's only the massively high OCV, the characters are reacting to each other. The OCV means really good aim, but he's aiming at a spot the target isn't at all of a sudden. If he's got the DEX, so the target managed to move out of the way really fast (you know, like in the movies), but unless the target actually got behind something, all the attacker has to do is wait until his next Phase and shoot the target while he's prone and at 1/2 DCV and can't DFC, or even dodge. When given the choice of DFC or Dodge on open ground, Dodge is usualy better. About the only time it's not is when you've got a higher DEX and SPD, in that case, you've got a higher DEX and SPD and it makes perfect sense to DFC instead of Dodge.

[Killer Shrike]

Just read the entry for Diving For Cover and learned a couple of things:

1. DFC is an attack action. Really? Weird.
2. You can use DFC to avoid normal attacks as well as AE attacks.

The bit about it being an attack action. Why? I mean you never DFC as part of your regular action: it is an abort action, plain and simple. The only reason for stipulating this that I can see is that it ends your phase, but that implies that it is possible to say abort to turning on a defensive power and still have actions in hand. Probably I'm over-analysisng, but you all know that's whatI do best.

It's an attack action because it ends your Phase. "Attack-<i>equivalent</i>" might be a better way to think of it. Dodge and Block are also considered "Attacks" for instance, as are Aid, Succor, and Heal.

As far as it being an Abort, you dont <i>have</i> to Abort to Abort actions; you <i>can</i> Abort to them. However you could also, for some reason, declare an intent to D4C as your actual action rather than Aborting to do so. Granted, there's no actual advantage to doing so, of course -- particularly for D4C.

[Sean Waters]

Are you suggesting that aborting to switching on your force field (which clearly is NOT an attack action) leaves you other stuff you can do, like take the rest of your phase? I've always understood that whatever you've aborted to ends your phase, although that is not stated in the rules.

Also on the DFC v dodge thing, if two characters are fighting and have equal speed (say SPD 5), character 1, Ultra, has 100 DEX and a 30d6 punch and 50 rPD and is built on 100 points, character 2, PM (Pathetic Man) has 18 DEX, and a 3d6 punch and 5 PD and is built on 50 points (look I know it is not likely that they are going to have equal SPD, but work with the example here), it seems to me that a dodge is going to be ineffective as a tactic (PM's DCV goes up from 6 to 9. Ultra's OCV is 33. She needs an 18 to MISS PM either way), but PM has a 12- chance of diving for cover, so he'll last several rounds on average. If you had +5 with Dex rolls he'd last all day (well 108 attacks on average).

PM may be prone and 1/2 DCV after the first attack, but by the time the second attack comes around, he can dive for cover again: you only have to cover 1". you can do that from prone, and we are basically ignoring your DCV anyway.

As for it being a meta-rule equivalent to AE attacks, I'd say, 'No, it isn't: the difference to my mind is that AE attacks are targetted at a hex, individually targeted (IT) attacks are targetted at you. I wouldn't generally allow you to react by moving to an attack that is targetted against you specifically.

To take an example that may illustrate the point - we've been talking about punches and HtH attacks, mainly. What about guns? Sniper is aiming at The Dancer. The Dancer steps 2m to the side and is 40m away from the Sniper. The Sniper doesn't get to adjust his aim? This is (as has been suggested, I believe) a dodge. Look at what is being accomplished: you are trying to put the person off their aim, rather than step out of the point of aim (which you can't really know anyway).

My take FWIW, would be to disallow DFC against IT attacks, and require that you dodge instead. This may lead to some inequity if someonoe is being targetted by AE and an IT attack, so hell, I'll let them dodge AND DFC. The dodge is at a -1 DCV penalty and the DFC is at a -1 DEX roll penalty. Call it 'Getting out of Dodge'. I'd rule the DFC penalty to DCV is for being effectively prone, so it doesn't cut in until the end of the segment when you land.

Or you could spend the day watching Ultra try to slap PM silly and failing.

[Sean Waters]

As far as it being an Abort, you dont <i>have</i> to Abort to Abort actions; you <i>can</i> Abort to them. However you could also, for some reason, declare an intent to D4C as your actual action rather than Aborting to do so. Granted, there's no actual advantage to doing so, of course -- particularly for D4C.

No, quite, I didn't mean you had to abort to DFC, just that you would only ever abort to it: if it was your action you'd just move normally. I tend to be horribly inaccurate with my posts, don't I? I wonder if that is why I get into so many arguments?

[pinecone]

Maybe a fix for Mega OCV vs DFC is penalizing the roll by how much the attacker made it instead of how far you leap? say -1 per 2 you made it by, min penalty of 1? So OCV 20 dude is going to make the roll by 10 or so and inpose a penalty of -5 to the DFC roll. Hmmmm...maybe 1+amount made by/2? so that example would be -6, and a roll by 2 (much more likely) would be -2 DFC....?

[Patriot]

Its your 3rd game.

If these rules are just coming into play now, the gm should be a little3 more forgiving.

[Hugh Neilson]

Maybe a fix for Mega OCV vs DFC is penalizing the roll by how much the attacker made it instead of how far you leap? say -1 per 2 you made it by, min penalty of 1? So OCV 20 dude is going to make the roll by 10 or so and inpose a penalty of -5 to the DFC roll. Hmmmm...maybe 1+amount made by/2? so that example would be -6, and a roll by 2 (much more likely) would be -2 DFC....?

This may be a reasonable approach. If the attacker hits by 10 to get a -6 roll, though, he would have hit a Dodging target by 7, and a Martial Dodging target by 5. The DEX roll of 7- (assuming base DEX roll of 13) still seems more likely to avoid damage than Dodging. Then again, a Dodge doesn't leve you prone even if the attacker misses.

I think the easiest fix would be to redefine "Dive for Cover" as an extreme Dodge. A character diving for cover could receive:

- the Dodge bonus (Martial Dodge if he has it) automatically
- the benefit of getting out of an area effect attack if he makes the roll
- the benefit of any cover he dove behind if he makes the roll

The only problem is that he logically must be out of HTH range if he made the roll.

What if the character got the DFC distance vs an area effect attack, and against non-AE attacks, he got +1 DCV for every 2 points (say) he makes the roll by? A guy with 20 DEX is likely better off dodging - he needs a 7- just to get his Dodge bonus back. If I have 38 DEX, I can get a Dodge equivalent if I roll 11-, and better if I roll lower (still 7- to get a Martial Dodge).

Maybe we could go to +1 DCV for every 1 point the roll is made by. Our 20 DEX guy has a 50/50 chance of equalling or bettering a dodge, but he's still prone afterwards. 38 DEX should get a huge DCV bonus, but he gives up a lot more by being prone.

[Dust Raven]

I know you were replying to Killer Shrike, but I hope he doesn't mind if I help cover this.

Are you suggesting that aborting to switching on your force field (which clearly is NOT an attack action) leaves you other stuff you can do, like take the rest of your phase? I've always understood that whatever you've aborted to ends your phase, although that is not stated in the rules.

DFC, Block, Dodge, etc are all Attack Actions, in that they end you Phase no mater when you use them. You can, for instance, you can start your Phase with a Dodge, increasing your DCV, but then you wouldn't be able to move. Same thing with using Aid, even though it only takes up a 1/2 Phase, you're done. Turning on a Power is almost always a 0 Phase action. However, anything you abort to using up a Full Phase (or a held Half Phase), no mater how long it would take to perform that maneuver normally during your Phase.

Also on the DFC v dodge thing, if two characters are fighting and have equal speed (say SPD 5), character 1, Ultra, has 100 DEX and a 30d6 punch and 50 rPD and is built on 100 points, character 2, PM (Pathetic Man) has 18 DEX, and a 3d6 punch and 5 PD and is built on 50 points (look I know it is not likely that they are going to have equal SPD, but work with the example here), it seems to me that a dodge is going to be ineffective as a tactic (PM's DCV goes up from 6 to 9. Ultra's OCV is 33. She needs an 18 to MISS PM either way), but PM has a 12- chance of diving for cover, so he'll last several rounds on average. If you had +5 with Dex rolls he'd last all day (well 108 attacks on average).

PM may be prone and 1/2 DCV after the first attack, but by the time the second attack comes around, he can dive for cover again: you only have to cover 1". you can do that from prone, and we are basically ignoring your DCV anyway.

This is not true. One anyone Aborts, they can't abort again until their next Phase starts. If Ultra shoots on Segment 12 at DEX 100, PM DFCs 1" and has a 70% so chance of being missed (I didn't do the math, but that's not what's important here, it's a pretty good chance). PM is now prone, at 1/2 DCV (not that the reduction matters versus Ultra) and can't Abort until his DEX on Segment 3. However, Ultra acts on DEX 100 of Segment 3, and attack before PM has a chance to Abort again. PM is now Paste Man.

As for it being a meta-rule equivalent to AE attacks, I'd say, 'No, it isn't: the difference to my mind is that AE attacks are targetted at a hex, individually targeted (IT) attacks are targetted at you. I wouldn't generally allow you to react by moving to an attack that is targetted against you specifically.

To take an example that may illustrate the point - we've been talking about punches and HtH attacks, mainly. What about guns? Sniper is aiming at The Dancer. The Dancer steps 2m to the side and is 40m away from the Sniper. The Sniper doesn't get to adjust his aim? This is (as has been suggested, I believe) a dodge. Look at what is being accomplished: you are trying to put the person off their aim, rather than step out of the point of aim (which you can't really know anyway).

My take FWIW, would be to disallow DFC against IT attacks, and require that you dodge instead. This may lead to some inequity if someonoe is being targetted by AE and an IT attack, so hell, I'll let them dodge AND DFC. The dodge is at a -1 DCV penalty and the DFC is at a -1 DEX roll penalty. Call it 'Getting out of Dodge'. I'd rule the DFC penalty to DCV is for being effectively prone, so it doesn't cut in until the end of the segment when you land.

Or you could spend the day watching Ultra try to slap PM silly and failing.

I think the best mechanic for avoiding a Snipers shot is to DFC. What do you see in the movies and on TV? "Bob, look out! There's a sniper on the roof!" and Bob immediately hits the dirt. BAM! Shots goes off, but Bob ducked and was missed. Why? Because he DFC for 1" down and is now prone. Granted, this is when the Sniper should take a second shot, but now he was to reset, which takes another Phase, and by then someone else with a gun might learn his possition, so he splits.

If you had Bob dodge instead, he'd just get hit (Bob is kinda agile, so he has a DCV of 4, 7 while Dodging, and 1/2 for the surprise attack for a total of 4, and the sniper likely is skilled at this sort of thing and has lots of levels and hitting a 4 DCV is gonna be cake). You way, those dramatic scenes in the movies just can't happens unless your snipers suck.

[Dust Raven]

Maybe a fix for Mega OCV vs DFC is penalizing the roll by how much the attacker made it instead of how far you leap? say -1 per 2 you made it by, min penalty of 1? So OCV 20 dude is going to make the roll by 10 or so and inpose a penalty of -5 to the DFC roll. Hmmmm...maybe 1+amount made by/2? so that example would be -6, and a roll by 2 (much more likely) would be -2 DFC....?

I think it's perfect as it is (a duh from me usually). If used the way I've described, it perfectly simulates certain combat effects you can't achieve otherwise. These combat effects include (and are certainly not limited to): Ducking the sniper shot at the last minute, ducking behind those crates or machinery to avoid being shot, stumbling back to avoid having your head smashed in my the school bully just before the dean walks by, and of course, leaping into the air to get away from a grenade that just landed at your feet (or a bomb you just noticed switching from 00:01 to 00:00).

On top of that, making DFC harder to perform (and it isn't the greatest defense maneuver in the first place) goes against the metarule of Hero that states that defense should be easier, and the benifit goes to the defender (It's why a Dodge or Block always happens first, no mater what the DEX/SPD of the attacker is).

[pinecone]

In general I do like the rules "as is' but after seeing in the FAQ that DFC works vs regular attacks also I wrote up "Leapin annoyance man" (tm) with +5 with DFC,leaping accuracy and dodge and dang if he wasn't really annoying! So I can certainly feel for Bullseye when Spastic man keeps twitching out of the way...Hero combat is often very slow and a lot of DFC action could bog things down...though I live for the day my Bat clone can stand in front of a wall and taunt the speedster into moving through so I can dive out of the way! (this will never happen, no speedster in his right mind comes close to a martial artist Ever).....

[zornwil]

Dodge, DFC, Block, and such make sense as counting similar to attack actions, IMHO, as similar to those they involve a heavy maneuvering and that little extra concentration, as compared to turning on a FF or activating other defenses.