When do you Abort?

[zornwil]

In general I do like the rules "as is' but after seeing in the FAQ that DFC works vs regular attacks also I wrote up "Leapin annoyance man" (tm) with +5 with DFC,leaping accuracy and dodge and dang if he wasn't really annoying! So I can certainly feel for Bullseye when Spastic man keeps twitching out of the way...Hero combat is often very slow and a lot of DFC action could bog things down...though I live for the day my Bat clone can stand in front of a wall and taunt the speedster into moving through so I can dive out of the way! (this will never happen, no speedster in his right mind comes close to a martial artist Ever).....

Leapin annoyance man is going to have a tough time when facing the Area Effect Duplicates. He can't DFC twice in one phase. Similarly, any team can counter those who DFC a lot.

[Hyper-Man]

...snip...

This is not true. Once anyone Aborts, they can't abort again until their next Phase starts. If Ultra shoots on Segment 12 at DEX 100, PM DFCs 1" and has a 70% so chance of being missed (I didn't do the math, but that's not what's important here, it's a pretty good chance). PM is now prone, at 1/2 DCV (not that the reduction matters versus Ultra) and can't Abort until his DEX on Segment 3. However, Ultra acts on DEX 100 of Segment 3, and attack before PM has a chance to Abort again. PM is now Paste Man.

...snip...

I agree with your sentiments but actually the rules for abort are such that technically PM could actually abort on phase 1 (if he were facing a SPD 12 opponent) but would then not be able to abort until phase 4.

The ability to abort is not really dependent on a characters DEX other than determining if it is a held action vs. an aborted one. The character's SPD and use of actions determines how many times he can abort. When DEX 100 Ultra attacks on phase 12 PM has to 'abort' to a defensive action if he wants to respond to the attack. If he does this he is only aborting his regular full phase actions of phase 12. Once it becomes phase 1 his ability to abort has reset and he has the option to abort once anytime until phase 4 where it resets again...

HM

[Dust Raven]

I agree with your sentiments but actually the rules for abort are such that technically PM could actually abort on phase 1 (if he were facing a SPD 12 opponent) but would then not be able to abort until phase 4.

The ability to abort is not really dependent on a characters DEX other than determining if it is a held action vs. an aborted one. The character's SPD and use of actions determines how many times he can abort. When DEX 100 Ultra attacks on phase 12 PM has to 'abort' to a defensive action if he wants to respond to the attack. If he does this he is only aborting his regular full phase actions of phase 12. Once it becomes phase 1 his ability to abort has reset and he has the option to abort once anytime until phase 4 where it resets again...

HM

I wasn't aware of that. I certainly haven't run it that way, and I'm not sure if I want to.

In any case, all DEXman has to do is hold, or, heaven forbid, spread his attack for area (say an inch or two) and and the DFC wonder is toast. Of course, given the probability of a character with a 12- DEX roll to DFC avoiding attacks, it can't happen indefinately, and probably not for a full turn. In any case, I've never encountered a problem with it, even with characters that like to use it alot.

[zornwil]

I wasn't aware of that. I certainly haven't run it that way, and I'm not sure if I want to.

In any case, all DEXman has to do is hold, or, heaven forbid, spread his attack for area (say an inch or two) and and the DFC wonder is toast. Of course, given the probability of a character with a 12- DEX roll to DFC avoiding attacks, it can't happen indefinately, and probably not for a full turn. In any case, I've never encountered a problem with it, even with characters that like to use it alot.

Dust Raven, I don't see a real issue - on seg 12 he's just aborting earlier in the phase, and so he shouldn't be penalized on seg 1 of the next Turn since he really does have another phase coming to him. Put it this way - if he aborted at the beginning of seg 3 (if his SPD were 4) he'd be able to abort on seg 4 because he just took his seg 3 action and has another one coming on seg 6, which can be aborted early. Aborting is just a line of credit that indicates you have one action upcoming that you've not yet taken.

[Hugh Neilson]

Dust Raven, I don't see a real issue - on seg 12 he's just aborting earlier in the phase, and so he shouldn't be penalized on seg 1 of the next Turn since he really does have another phase coming to him. Put it this way - if he aborted at the beginning of seg 3 (if his SPD were 4) he'd be able to abort on seg 4 because he just took his seg 3 action and has another one coming on seg 6, which can be aborted early. Aborting is just a line of credit that indicates you have one action upcoming that you've not yet taken.

3
Just adding to the concept...

I agree PM can abort again on Seg 1 - he has passed the ph 12 action he would have had. However, he's now prone. Should there be a penalty to his DFC Dex roll? "Hurling yourself back" 6 feet or so is markedly less easy when you're laying on the ground than when you're standing upright.

[Sean Waters]

DFC, Block, Dodge, etc are all Attack Actions, in that they end you Phase no mater when you use them. You can, for instance, you can start your Phase with a Dodge, increasing your DCV, but then you wouldn't be able to move. Same thing with using Aid, even though it only takes up a 1/2 Phase, you're done. Turning on a Power is almost always a 0 Phase action. However, anything you abort to using up a Full Phase (or a held Half Phase), no mater how long it would take to perform that maneuver normally during your Phase.

Accept this: I'm just whittering because I can't think of a situation where you would DFC and it would not be an abort action. Ignore me, I'll go away eventually...

This is not true. One anyone Aborts, they can't abort again until their next Phase starts. If Ultra shoots on Segment 12 at DEX 100, PM DFCs 1" and has a 70% so chance of being missed (I didn't do the math, but that's not what's important here, it's a pretty good chance). PM is now prone, at 1/2 DCV (not that the reduction matters versus Ultra) and can't Abort until his DEX on Segment 3. However, Ultra acts on DEX 100 of Segment 3, and attack before PM has a chance to Abort again. PM is now Paste Man.

This has been covered more eloquently by others, but you can abort again on the following segment. In fact the way the rules are written in FRED I can't actually see that you couldn't abort several times on consecutive segments, each time using your 'next' phase, but I'm sure that is not what is intended, and certainly not how I have played it, but two characters of equal speed can't get the drop by holding actions or any other tactic.....except, maybe a multtiple move by? Take this example: Ultra does a multiple move by on PM, PM aborts to DFC, Ultra does the second multiple move-by on the new location...would that work?

I think the best mechanic for avoiding a Snipers shot is to DFC. What do you see in the movies and on TV? "Bob, look out! There's a sniper on the roof!" and Bob immediately hits the dirt. BAM! Shots goes off, but Bob ducked and was missed. Why? Because he DFC for 1" down and is now prone. Granted, this is when the Sniper should take a second shot, but now he was to reset, which takes another Phase, and by then someone else with a gun might learn his possition, so he splits.

If you had Bob dodge instead, he'd just get hit (Bob is kinda agile, so he has a DCV of 4, 7 while Dodging, and 1/2 for the surprise attack for a total of 4, and the sniper likely is skilled at this sort of thing and has lots of levels and hitting a 4 DCV is gonna be cake). You way, those dramatic scenes in the movies just can't happens unless your snipers suck.

No, I reckon it is a dodge. If Bob can abort it isn't a surprise attack any more: he is on notice, so he gets his full DCV of 7. Assuming that Bob is kinda agile and the sniper no more so and any levels have just removed range modifiers and maybe added 1 or 2 to OCV after doing that, Bob is going to have a better than average chance of avoiding the attack he is aware of. Or you could allow him to use the Hurry manoeuvre to get behind cover before the shot goes off. I mean, you can't dodge a bullet unless you have a ludicrously high DEX and some pretty spiffy perception powers too, so you must be putting off the Sniper by moving/dodging.

More often than not Snipers are aiming at people who are not expecting it and are 1/2DCV, so your sniper aiming at Bob would be expecting to be targetting a DCV of 2. That's pretty easy: not all snipers have to be gun-gods, they just need patience. And to shoot the bloke who was going to warn Bob first....

[Sean Waters]

3
Just adding to the concept...

I agree PM can abort again on Seg 1 - he has passed the ph 12 action he would have had. However, he's now prone. Should there be a penalty to his DFC Dex roll? "Hurling yourself back" 6 feet or so is markedly less easy when you're laying on the ground than when you're standing upright.

Or you could just use crawl speed....

[Dust Raven]

3
Just adding to the concept...

I agree PM can abort again on Seg 1 - he has passed the ph 12 action he would have had. However, he's now prone. Should there be a penalty to his DFC Dex roll? "Hurling yourself back" 6 feet or so is markedly less easy when you're laying on the ground than when you're standing upright.

If you've got the action to abort to, I'd say yes. I've seen rolling around on the gound in movies and TV enough to allow it.

[Dust Raven]

No, I reckon it is a dodge. If Bob can abort it isn't a surprise attack any more: he is on notice, so he gets his full DCV of 7. Assuming that Bob is kinda agile and the sniper no more so and any levels have just removed range modifiers and maybe added 1 or 2 to OCV after doing that, Bob is going to have a better than average chance of avoiding the attack he is aware of. Or you could allow him to use the Hurry manoeuvre to get behind cover before the shot goes off. I mean, you can't dodge a bullet unless you have a ludicrously high DEX and some pretty spiffy perception powers too, so you must be putting off the Sniper by moving/dodging.

Actually, unless Bob knew where the attack was coming from, he's still consider "surprised"... or at least he's still at 1/2 DCV. I wouldn't recomend Hurry, as since we're already on the DEX of the sniper, he and Bob would have to DEX off to see who acts first, if the sniper wins the roll, Bob is now worse off if he just Aborted to anything.

More often than not Snipers are aiming at people who are not expecting it and are 1/2DCV, so your sniper aiming at Bob would be expecting to be targetting a DCV of 2. That's pretty easy: not all snipers have to be gun-gods, they just need patience. And to shoot the bloke who was going to warn Bob first....[/QUOTE]Okay, I'm not a sniper, but I'm familiar with such rifles and was on the Rifle Team in ROTC, and learned to shoot from my Grandfather who was sharpshooter in the military. Again, I'm a sniper, but I think I understand how it all works. I should also point out that my knowledge is real world, and not that of heroic fiction, but here it goes anyway...

A sniper has to compensate for range and the natural motion of the target. He also have to make a called shot to a vital location on the target (head or heart) so the target dies with a signgle shot. In Hero System, these penalties are represented by a Range Modifer, the target's DCV and a Hit Location Penalty. Some of these are easily compensated for using Set & Brace and a good scope. A sniper is usually more than 8 hexes away though, up to a city block or more (100 hexes, or a -10). Assuming the sniper is a relatively normal guy (DEX 13/OCV 4), has a 7.62 RL (SVD Dragunov Sniper Rifle) from the rulebook and is 50 hexes from his target and sets & braces, he'll have a -2 OCV versus a DCV 2 (Bob also has DEX 13) for a 7 or less chace of hitting. So in my opinion the sniper will have to have at least 6 levels with his rifle for a 13- chance of hitting, most likely more, or a much higher DEX.

Using the same numbers as above, with 6 levels for the sniper, we can look at the difference between Dodging and DFC:

A buddy knows about the sniper, and might even know where he's at, and yells "Bob, look out, there's a sniper!" Bob still doesn't know where the sniper is at, so is still at 1/2 DCV and half the Hit Location Penalties.

Dodging: Bob's DCV is 4, instead of 2, and the sniper has an 11- chance of hitting him.

DFC: Bob has a 12- DEX roll, and must make an 11- roll to DFC 1" and me missed.

It's the same roll. If for some reason the sniper doesn't have that many levels, or is further away, he might be better off Dodging, but if he's any closer, or has more levels, or even has better equipment, Bob is better off Diving For Cover.

[Dust Raven]

Dust Raven, I don't see a real issue - on seg 12 he's just aborting earlier in the phase, and so he shouldn't be penalized on seg 1 of the next Turn since he really does have another phase coming to him. Put it this way - if he aborted at the beginning of seg 3 (if his SPD were 4) he'd be able to abort on seg 4 because he just took his seg 3 action and has another one coming on seg 6, which can be aborted early. Aborting is just a line of credit that indicates you have one action upcoming that you've not yet taken.

So if the two combatants have the same SPD, the defender can constantly DFC untill he misses a roll. If the attacker has even one more point of SPD, he'll peg the target in less than a Turn. And if there are two attacker, the target is pretty much screwed if he DFCs, regardless of the SPDs involved.
I could live with that.

[zornwil]

(snip) In fact the way the rules are written in FRED I can't actually see that you couldn't abort several times on consecutive segments, each time using your 'next' phase, but I'm sure that is not what is intended, (snip)

Would you please cite the page in 5th or 5ER? (don't care which)

[Hyper-Man]

Would you please cite the page in 5th or 5ER? (don't care which)

5E really doesn't have a full description of just Abort but 5ER does on page 362 paragraph 3:

Once a character Aborts, he cannot Abort again or take any other Actions until after the phase he Aborted has passed. For example, suppose a SPD 4 character (Phases in 3, 6, 9 and 12) Aborts his Phase in Segment 6 in Segment 4 to Dodge an attack. He cannot Abort again, or take any other Actions, in Segments 4, 5 or 6. After Segment 6 passes (i.e., in Segment 7 or later), he can Abort again (for example, in Segment7 or 8 he could Abort his Phase in Segment 9).

The effects of Block* (*including Missle Deflection), Dodge and Dive For Cover also linger beyond the first Phase/segment that they are used. In the case of DFC though it just happens to only be the negative: 1/2 DCV and Prone. A character who aborts to a Block can keep blocking until his next Phase as long as he doesn't miss a block. The DCV bonus from Dodge also lingers until the character's next phase.

HM

[Sean Waters]

Would you please cite the page in 5th or 5ER? (don't care which)

Left the book at work, so I'll do it tomorrow, but it is just the bit in the combat and movement section of FRED about aborting actions: I can not see where it says you have to go past the phase you aborted FROM before you can abort again, but that is how I always play it.

[Hyper-Man]

Left the book at work, so I'll do it tomorrow, but it is just the bit in the combat and movement section of FRED about aborting actions: I can not see where it says you have to go past the phase you aborted FROM before you can abort again, but that is how I always play it.

read my previous post.

[Sean Waters]

A sniper has to compensate for range and the natural motion of the target. He also have to make a called shot to a vital location on the target (head or heart) so the target dies with a signgle shot. In Hero System, these penalties are represented by a Range Modifer, the target's DCV and a Hit Location Penalty. Some of these are easily compensated for using Set & Brace and a good scope. A sniper is usually more than 8 hexes away though, up to a city block or more (100 hexes, or a -10). Assuming the sniper is a relatively normal guy (DEX 13/OCV 4), has a 7.62 RL (SVD Dragunov Sniper Rifle) from the rulebook and is 50 hexes from his target and sets & braces, he'll have a -2 OCV versus a DCV 2 (Bob also has DEX 13) for a 7 or less chace of hitting. So in my opinion the sniper will have to have at least 6 levels with his rifle for a 13- chance of hitting, most likely more, or a much higher DEX.

Using the same numbers as above, with 6 levels for the sniper, we can look at the difference between Dodging and DFC:

A buddy knows about the sniper, and might even know where he's at, and yells "Bob, look out, there's a sniper!" Bob still doesn't know where the sniper is at, so is still at 1/2 DCV and half the Hit Location Penalties.

Dodging: Bob's DCV is 4, instead of 2, and the sniper has an 11- chance of hitting him.

DFC: Bob has a 12- DEX roll, and must make an 11- roll to DFC 1" and me missed.

It's the same roll. If for some reason the sniper doesn't have that many levels, or is further away, he might be better off Dodging, but if he's any closer, or has more levels, or even has better equipment, Bob is better off Diving For Cover.

Six levels is far too much. That is a hell of a lot. The sniper gets his accuracy from the SET manoeuvre and a couple of three levels at most.

I'd be perfectly happy to rule that if a target moves suddenly and unexpectedly the sniper has to make some sort of roll to maintain the set bonus, probably have the target make some sort of PRE attack, like getting out from under a covered manoeuvre.

Also you are only surprised in combat if you are not expecting the attack: you could have Bob make an INT roll to work out that the shout means he is the target of a sniper an react appropriately at full DCV. None of this requires DFC, but if that is how you want to play it (and the rules are, of course, on your side in this one), go for your life.