Stun Problem in Fantasy Hero (Double it)

[Trencher]

Bleeding rules, now them, use them, bleeding rules are your friend.

[Ner0Sputnik]

I'm more looking to address the sword knocking someone out and the Heroic PC's going around and cutting the throats of the KOed after the battle issue then anything else.

This is one of my... for lack of a better term "Pet Peeves." I can't stand it when this stuff happens. I do, generally, play that when someone's down, he stays down, at least for the course of that combat.

We don't use the hit location but rather armor activation rolls. That might resolve a lot of it.

Hit location is the shiznit! And I also use sectional defenses. I love it.

I'm still testing doubling the stun, but it does seem the easiest and fastest way. People still get stunned which is good. Breaks up the combats. It keeps the fights exciting and while people can be knocked out it doesn't happen nearly as much. I also find it provides more tension as the PC gets to the last 10 points of stun or so.

VERY cool, I'm definitely trying it.

I'm also note that most of my opponents will run away if they get below half body. Those that don't are scary.

Yeah, I usually have the first few guys fight to the death, but once they take a couple of casualties (especially if it's really quickly) I make a group "morale" check (based on Ego) to see if they turn tail and run. The more they lose, the more negatives they get to their roll. If they wipe them out and leave one standing, I normally don't even make a roll. He just throws down his weapon and surrenders... which is often the wrong thing to do after you try and kill a dwarf.

The only problem with "double your defenses" is that only rarely will anyone get stunned.

That's why I think I'll keep it only for bladed weapons. Fists, staves, maces, etc... will do damage normally.

NerØ

[Krim Haneth]

Rarely have I had that problem. Most hits that are dealt out, are on the chest and arms, not much stun from those. I also use dramatic effect in some cases rather than following the rules to a tee, ie... you swing your sword and sever the goblins arm off at the elbow, the goblin looks down at his bleeding stump, then falls in a heap at your feet. I also have enemies after taking a few hits run screaming into the dark. I don't like tying my players down with extended fights when it isn't neccessary. So for me the standard rules like hit locations and the like work just fine.

Krim

[Trencher]

If you have problem with arms being hit recomend to the players that they aim for the torso when they fight grunts and mooks.
It is common practice in ninja hero.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I have two words for you. Impairing and Disabling. If you use the optional Impairing and Disabling rules, you will get a lot more "death by sword" in your campaign. This can happen to the PC's too, so be careful.

For unimportant scrubbs and ruffians, assume an Impairing wound to the Head, Vitals or Chest kills them (or wounds them to the point they are no longer able to fight) A disabling wound is instant death for this lot.

PC's (and important NPC's) should get the benefit of the doubt with this systme, so Impairing and Disabling wounds shouldn't auto-kill them (use the normal rules for when death occurse) unless its a Disabling wound to the Head or Vitals, which should pretty much kill them outright. Lenient GM's might want to give them a full turn or so before they expire so healing can be administered if possible.

Trust me. The Impairing and Disabling rules, when used liberally will remove the problem of KOed enemies and increase the body count significantly...

[Rick]

Ummm, please correct me if I'm wrong...but you apply the hit loc modifier before subtracting armor. So a Head shot would do 14 body, 11 body to a person 5 points of Def on their 3-5.

That's how we play anyways. Makes things FUN!!!

[Rick]

Wow just looked it up... I was wrong. Well I'll tell you this, this will make your game far more deadly. We use it. Games still aren't blood baths but combat is definitly something to think about before entering into. As a note: we also allow a "roll with puch" on head and vital shots for pc's. If they can make the dex roll they'll take only half the damage(after the multiplier and armor has been figured). This is to avoid lame/wanker deaths caused by the randomness of dice. We don't mind PC's dieing, just PC's dieing stupidly.

[Supreme]

We handle this by doing a straight x2 multiplier for all KAs, instead of 1D6-1. It plays faster, keeps the Stun damage under control, and is a lot easier to remember. We still allow people to buy levels of increased stun multiplier.

[cndblank]

I find a d3+1 KA stun multiple works well.

I also like critical hits, but instead of doing max damage, I have it do double damage.

It is still nasty, but it doesn't leave the PC hero/major villain at -60 stun (2d6K becomes 24 body and120 stun - that is sleeping beauty time).

So far doubling the stun of everyone works pretty well, everyone likes it so far and it is a breeze to keep track of. After listening to this board I do think hit locations would help the issue.

Still, I think it is more realistic in a Heroic campaign for people to take a while to get beat senseless. You always have a luck blow or a head or groin shot to one shot you, but people especially people in armor take a lot to put down. Look at bare-knuckle fighters or boxers? They would fight forever in Champions terms.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I also like critical hits, but instead of doing max damage, I have it do double damage.

I also use Critical Hits, but I just use Max Damage, not double damage (double damage would be deadly nearly every time. Max Damage is bad enough)

So far doubling the stun of everyone works pretty well, everyone likes it so far and it is a breeze to keep track of. After listening to this board I do think hit locations would help the issue.

Actually, Hit Locations do help with the Stun Lottery issue quite a bit. It makes the X4 and X5 stun multiples come up much less often. X1 also is quite rare. X2 and X3 are the most common Stun multiples when one uses hit locations, and this makes the Stun of killing attacks reasonable without being overbearing. 10 Body damage becomes 20 stun on a limb hit (most likely) or 30 Stun on a Chest or Shoulders hit. Threatening, but not irresistable.

Still, I think it is more realistic in a Heroic campaign for people to take a while to get beat senseless. You always have a luck blow or a head or groin shot to one shot you, but people especially people in armor take a lot to put down. Look at bare-knuckle fighters or boxers? They would fight forever in Champions terms.

Well, Boxers take a while to go down because they buy up their PD quite a bit. Also, at the beginning of the Boxing match, the boxers never use their full strength until their opponent is beginning to wear down, otherwise they'll use up their END too quickly. A boxer with a 6 or 7 PD would be very difficult for a normal person (without Martial Arts or skill levels) to hurt. The same thing can apply in a Fantasy game. A tough fighter should buy up his PD (probably not his ED too much, since energy attacks are far less common) almost to the max level (between 6 and 8 PD) and this coupled with decent armor (Chainmail at 6pd to Full Plate at 8pd) would make said fighter pretty tough to put down. Even on a X3 Stun multiple at 10 Body damage, a Figher with a PD of 8 wearing Chainmail will only take 16 stun from the attack. (which might Stun him...or might not) which means its going to take 3 or more solid strikes to the fighters major extremeties (chest, shoulders or stomach) to put him down.
I find this to be fairly realistic as the best defense is to not get hit which encourages use of the Dodge and Block maneuvers. Realistically, how many ancient warriors would stand there and let the enemy hit them repeatedly? None, I grant you. They would either;
A) try to kill the enemy first
B) Parry and riposte, or
C) Dodge and counter attack.

Only an idiot gives his enemy a chance to kill him. A brave idiot, mind you, but an idiot nonetheless.
I like this particular aspect of the system as it encourages use of various tatctical maneuvers inherent in the system...

[Supreme]

I find a d3+1 KA stun multiple works well.

I also like critical hits, but instead of doing max damage, I have it do double damage.

It is still nasty, but it doesn't leave the PC hero/major villain at -60 stun (2d6K becomes 24 body and120 stun - that is sleeping beauty time).

So far doubling the stun of everyone works pretty well, everyone likes it so far and it is a breeze to keep track of. After listening to this board I do think hit locations would help the issue.

Still, I think it is more realistic in a Heroic campaign for people to take a while to get beat senseless. You always have a luck blow or a head or groin shot to one shot you, but people especially people in armor take a lot to put down. Look at bare-knuckle fighters or boxers? They would fight forever in Champions terms.

We do max damage for crits (defined as making your attack roll by ten or more, fumbles are failing by ten or more) because it's faster and it makes more sense. A critical hit is just the best possible hit you could make. With a straight x2 multiple on a 3D6 KA, that's 18 Body and 36 Stun. Someone with 6PD and Chainmail (6 PD/ED Armor) takes 12 body and 24 Stun. They're righteous hurt, even dying, but they're probably not dead yet. They shouldn't be knocked out unless they've already taken damage, but they're probably stunned -- and should be!

The thing about fights and how long they last is funny. It seems to last a long time, whether you're in it or watching it, but in reality they're very fast. Someone I met once had been in prison and he said the longest fight he'd ever experienced lasted for about three minutes, but felt like he'd been fighting all day. In a heroic campaign characters will last longer -- if they're built right. PCs with lots and lots of combat skills will last until someone makes a good attack roll and clobbers you. PCs with lots of stats will simply last longer because they can take it.

The thing to keep in mind about that sense of "should" that we all get while playing is that dice do not enforce and rules of genre or drama. I made a Spider-Man clone character for Champions once. Built him almost exactly as the wall-crawler should have been. I didn't make through one round with four thugs armed with shotguns. Why? They each had a five or less to hit, one of them rolled a four and cut me in half (4D6 RKA, no resistant defenses). Yeah, the genre dictates that only someone with some kind of special "trump" for my super-Dex should be able to hit me. But RPGs don't work like that.

[cndblank]

For Spider Man, he has at least two levels of Combat Luck (or is at least 6 Def).

[Captain Obvious]

You could conceivably build Spidey with Armor, defined as Combat Luck that always works, given that his Spidey-sense is a lot more reliable than standard senses. I mean, you COULD have a Danger Sense roll or something for it, but that should be so high as to practically guarantee that he'll make the roll anyway.

[cndblank]

I also use Critical Hits, but I just use Max Damage, not double damage (double damage would be deadly nearly every time. Max Damage is bad enough)

That is what I get for doing one late at night. The problem I had with Max damage was that if you also did max Stun the target was out for the the fight. For normal attacks that might be OK.

A 6d6 club only does 12 body and 36 stun but a 2d6 Killing attack would do 12 body and 60 stun!

If anything killing attacks from slashing and piercing weapons would do less stun than a body blow. You hear of people being stabbed two dozen times and still trying to fight off their attackers. I'll go back to max damage but require a roll or location for the KA Stun multiplier.

A tough fighter should buy up his PD (probably not his ED too much, since energy attacks are far less common) almost to the max level (between 6 and 8 PD) and this coupled with decent armor (Chainmail at 6pd to Full Plate at 8pd) would make said fighter pretty tough to put down. Even on a X3 Stun multiple at 10 Body damage, a Figher with a PD of 8 wearing Chainmail will only take 16 stun from the attack. (which might Stun him...or might not) which means its going to take 3 or more solid strikes to the fighters major extremeties (chest, shoulders or stomach) to put him down.
I find this to be fairly realistic as the best defense is to not get hit which encourages use of the Dodge and Block maneuvers. Realistically, how many ancient warriors would stand there and let the enemy hit them repeatedly?

Well with being stunned a second attack is going to have a good chance of hitting. A PC with 18 Str, 18 Con, and 15 Body is going to have 33 stun. Two hits like that and he has 1 stun left.

I still find that without using hit location everyone goes down way too soon. Admittedly much of my experience was Dark Champions (automatic weapons are nasty even with good armor), but Heroic characters have way lower PD/ED and Def than Super Heroes. Plus they have lower stats so they are easier to stun and have less stun to begin with.

[AmadanNaBriona]

One thing I'm pondering for my new campaign is adding extra non resistant PD to the rigid armor types. It seems to mesh with my experiences fighting with "ancient" weapons. I started with fencing, myself, then moved progressively on to other types of combat. The first time I fought in full field plate, I had a friend with me, whom I gave a quarterstaff and instructed to beat me soundly about the head and shoulders. The purpose of this excercise was to convince my subconcious that armor does, in fact, protect you, especially against concussion. Didn't stop me from getting flattened, but then again... I was dealing with all those Encumberance Penalties that I'd never had to deal with before. During the fight, my opponent (who had appropriate levels to offset his Encumberance... the guy could do a kip in his armor) took me down with a Martial Throw, which definitely Stunned my ass. Basically I got wailed on, except for landing one Haymaker, which Stunned him. Fight called on account of running out of LTE (mine... I smoke). Got hit rather soundly with a HEAVY blunted blade (made from a truck leafspring) probably 2 dozen or more times in a 5 minute period, mostly in the head. I was a bit wobbly at the end, and quite out of breath, but honestly, the main place I actually hurt was in my neck, from having my head constantly whipped around by the impact of his sword (repeatedly pummeling the side of my helmet was what distracted him while I set up for my haymaker... He was leaving an opening right when he cocked back to hit me again ). This, along with quite a few other situations has convinced me that rigid armor needs some help in heroic level Hero games. Most of the actual BODY inflicting injuries I saw from this fighting troupe consisted of either...

• A blow slipping in somewhere the armor doesn't cover (this is why I put an activation roll on armor, and then still use hit locations. I basically asssume that every location has at least a few angles of attack that can slip by the armor)
• A blow that literally smashed in the armor, often driving the actual armor into flesh, sometimes with either gory, continious or annoying effects. examples include the guy who got the chin strap on his armor broken, the helmet spun 90 degrees to one side, and caved in on his skull so bad it needed to be chiseled off his concussed head. Another was the fighter who had her visor smashed in with a pommelstrike. Broken nose and another concussion. I saw the blood spray on that one. Very cinematic. Both these injuries were caused by a fellow we nicknamed "The Giant". About 6' 8" and well over 300 lbs.
  (I'm thinking that the armor is bought with Side Effects, taken when hit for either X2 the Def or when hit by an attack with DC greater than DEF... haven't messed with it too much, yet.)
• The armor broke under repeated impact. Happened personally to me in a demonstration fight. The strap on my left leg finaly said "no more!!!!" and broke, dropping the articulation for the knee down over my kneecap. As soon as I was knocked back, it clamshelled my kneecap and dropped me like a poleaxed steer. (In addtion to the activation roll, I make armor Ablative, in that hits that inflict body also decrease the activation roll for that location. )

OK...that got a bit more wordy than what I intended. I may be convincing myself that I do need to look into stun a bit more. I've blacked out from damage in a fight exactly twice I can remember, and both involved nasty unprotected head wounds. I have broken damn near every major bone at one point or another, and none of those put me down. Mostly in game terms it'd all be normal damage, as we don't use sharps. Perhaps coming up with a "Long Term Stun" rule to simulate shock might help.....
*sounds like a new thread idea...*