Stun Problem in Fantasy Hero (Double it)

[cndblank]

Hero generally leaves the loser knocked out rather than dead which is perfect for Champions but not as fun for Heroic level combat.

I've tried the various Heroic Level Campaign Stun rules. Treating it as Reduced Penetration takes too long and involves too much math.

I tried just doubling the defense against Stun which is faster and has almost the same effect. But getting stunned was very rare with both options.

Right now I’m just doubling the Stun stat for everyone. In Hero Designer, I just add a power called Stun House Rule for the Stun characteristic equal to their Stun Stat for zero points. It is added to their Primary Stun value

The only math involved is that NND attack stun is doubled after checking against Con to see if the target is stunned. That keeps NND attacks just as effective while making sure that your opponents are not all going to end up knocked out.

I’m still testing but it is very fast. It takes a while for someone to be knocked out.

The only other House rule I use with this is that Killing Attack stun is D3+1 rather than D6-1. This means that a Killing Attack will do at least twice the body done in stun while not having the instant KO Killing Attacks.

The Players like it both House Rules so far. They don’t get knocked out so much and have more satisfying combats. Every one gets stunned once in a while. It is a little more dramatic as they get low on Stun.

The only major issue is if you have a PC does a lot of normal damage. Since most PC’s in a Heroic level campaign use Killing Attacks it doesn’t effect very many.

I might reconsider this House Rule in a Martial Art’s campaign. However I allowed the Monk to have some extra Martial Art’s DCs and he is very effective. He does most of his Body damage from Critical hits, but he can keep more than his share of opponents very busy while being very hard to hit. Plus he can always use Martial Art’s weapons instead.

[Curufea]

You could redefine Stun as well to include shock, for extra realism.
Being cut or bludgeoned often puts the victim into shock - Similar to the superhero stun, but with more detrimental effects - they aren't unconscious, they've gone into shock. They are paralyzed, usually staring, lost colour to their skin, developed a cold sweat and are probably caught in the "Flight" mode.
They may vomit or do something similar.

It would have the following game effects - after they reach negative STUN from weapons/damage (rather than spells or attacks designed to cause unconsciousness), they go into Shock.
Until they regain 0 or more STUN, they are paralyzed and sick. They are "In Shock". Until they regain STUN equivalent to their normal CON level, they are "Coming out of Shock" and have severe penalties on all skills and decision making.
From CON level to full STUN, they are "Shaken" and have moderate penalties on skills, and have lost appetite, lack of strength, etc..

Or something similar.

[Intrope]

The only other House rule I use with this is that Killing Attack stun is D3+1 rather than D6-1. This means that a Killing Attack will do at least twice the body done in stun while not having the instant KO Killing Attacks.

That will actually leave you doing slightly more than normal STUN on Killing Attacks (x3, instead of x2.67).

You could make a custom multiplier die, with sides 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3--which eliminates the lottery but has the same average.

I do like the idea of using double stun as a way of handling the 'stunned by the blade' effect, mainly because it would be so easy to handle in play.

[RDU Neil]

Do you use the Hit Location Chart? Sounds like no.

One... I would encourage you to do so, as it adds a level of grittiness that works great for Fantasy Hero. Two, you get a lot of shots taken on the arms, which is only x2 stun, so heavy amounts of stun only come with head/stomach/vital shots... or really good torso shots.

Another thing that would make sense. For Medium to short weapons... reduce the stun multiple. Knives and daggers should probably be a -2 Stun multiple and medium swords a -1 stun multiple. Heavy swords, maces/hammers/picks, clubs and such... as normal.

For knives and daggers, this means that shots to good armor may do very little or NO stun... and with swords, even a stomach shot will only be x3 instead of x4.

To get even more "grainy" you need to look at a lot of different weapons, and compare them to certain armors. They all have their bonuses and problems.

Chain does little to stop thrusting attacks... but is great against slashing... and decent undercoats can absorb club like bashing. Chain sucks against heavy bashing, like hammer, maces, or worse, picks.

Heavy armor like plate should have a chance of light bashing weapons just glancing off with zero effect... slashing attacks not an issue... heavy bashing attacks much more effective.

All of that aside... do your characters block? My group is so combat intensive... most battles are "block strike... block strike... block strike..." and the defining moment is when a block is missed, or a tricky shot gets through. This works well for us, and makes for very dramatic sword fights.

[BNakagawa]

That will actually leave you doing slightly more than normal STUN on Killing Attacks (x3, instead of x2.67).

It might cause more net stun, it might not.

The reason is that the average stun generated is not as important as the average net stun. (that's average stun - average defenses)

It's possible for a power that causes more average stun (like an EB, which causes more average stun than an equivalent KA) to be less effective at generating average net stun. (a 3d6 EB will never do any damage vs an 18 def target but a 1d6 ka does some STUN 5/36 of the time)

It all depends on the average def of your campaign relative to the average attacks.

[OddHat]

I always just double the Body damage done if I want a more deadly game, and set the KA stun multiple at 2. If you're beaten unconscious in the real world, there's a fair chance you're seriously injured or dying. Throw in low res defenses and you'll kill people off fast.

[Intrope]

It might cause more net stun, it might not.

The reason is that the average stun generated is not as important as the average net stun. (that's average stun - average defenses)

It's possible for a power that causes more average stun (like an EB, which causes more average stun than an equivalent KA) to be less effective at generating average net stun. (a 3d6 EB will never do any damage vs an 18 def target but a 1d6 ka does some STUN 5/36 of the time)

It all depends on the average def of your campaign relative to the average attacks.

Very true. I'd think that in a heroic campaign where being BODY-dropped is a real possibility that the defenses are probably too low for a tighter stun multiple grouping to negate the damage. But it will reduce it at least somewhat (especially since you'll never get 4-5x results that can really pile on the STUN).

[CourtFool]

Dark Champions has some suggestions for dealing with this. You might check it out next time you are in your local gaming store.

[Markdoc]

I've never had problems with STUN in FH for 4 reasons.

1. I use the hit location chart
2. I'm relatively restrictive about armour as a GM. My players (and by fair play, my NPCs) don't generally go wandering around town in anything more warlike than a stout leather jerkin or a concealed chain vest.
3. I'm not, on the other hand, restrictive about levels, which as noted, leads to a much more tactical style of combat, with blocks and dodges being very important. If you have an OCV of 14, hitting "mook level" opponents in their unarmoured face is quite feasible and very often leaves a dying foe, not an unconscious one

4. I play NPCs a bit more "realistically". My players don't go around offing their unconscious but living foes after a fight because those foes don't spring to the feet when they regain consciousness and shout "Those guys juts kicked the crap out of us, so now lets's attack again while we're all badly wounded and half of us are dying!" Mostly people, who have been beaten unconscious, moan, stagger to their feet and run away to nurse their injuries.

Honestly, I find FH lethal enough as it is! I LIKE the option of beating the PCs unconscious rather than killing them.

cheers, Mark

[Frenchman]

I have to agree with MarkDoc, I've never had problems with the book system. We use the hit location chart, and since everyone's defenses are under 10 (in our current game the 'brick,' a dwarf doing a tin can impression, has 6 rdef and 10 normal), most characters take body damage when they get hit solidly.

Characters (and NPCs) are dropped by stun slightly more often than by body, but that is in large part because when a character is reduced to ~5 body or less (usually with similar amounts of stun left) they drop back and take recoveries or get healed. Anyone who has only 2 body left and is still fighting either has no choice/chance to escape, or is being badly role-played. Like MarkDoc said;

those foes don't spring to the feet when they regain consciousness and shout "Those guys juts kicked the crap out of us, so now lets's attack again while we're all badly wounded and half of us are dying!" Mostly people, who have been beaten unconscious, moan, stagger to their feet and run away to nurse their injuries.

There is a point when staying and fighting is a good idea (your side is winning), but usually foes waking up on the battlefield mid-battle had better get out of there while the party is still occupied with their friends.

[Rick]

Being knocked out as apposed to killed is actually the way hero is supposed to work out of the box. This represents heroic fantasy lit and cinema far better than a high death toll. There are plenty of options, see above, if you need to see more bloody games.

[PhilFleischmann]

2. I'm relatively restrictive about armour as a GM. My players (and by fair play, my NPCs) don't generally go wandering around town in anything more warlike than a stout leather jerkin or a concealed chain vest.

Me too! Plate armor is fine for jousting and for soldiers in mass combat, but adventurers should generally use lighter armors that are less restrictive on movement. How much armor are you letting your characters wear?

I even toyed with the idea of halving all resistant defenses. So, for example the best non-magical plate armor only provides 4 rPD. A good blow from a sword won't kill you, but it will wound you. I find this to be more realistic in some ways, but I haven't actually needed to implement it yet. Instead I simply discourage frequent use of heavy armor and defensive spells. (And yes, if you halve the DEF of armor, you should also halve the value of resistant defence powers - or double their cost, so a "Mage Armor" spell 5 PD/5 ED Force Field costs 20 active points.)

[Gobbo]

Are you using bleeding rules? Although characters nearly always just get knocked unconscious before getting killed, that doesn't mean they are safe...

A regular swing of sword with 1d6K damage with no increase for strength can do 6 points of damage without armor; 12 if it hits head. Since most characters in our campaigns have had body somewhere between 10 to 16, they are rarely killed by one hit, but the stun damage can be massive enough.

They might not be dead yet, but they are unconscious, badly hurt, taken impairing damage and rapidly bleeding to death unless stabilized in time, which is essentially the same thing for the losing side of the fight, so their friends had better finish with them bad guys really soon to get a chance to help the unlucky guy lying on floor in a bloody mess. (MEDIC! MEDIC! MOMMA!) And a zweihander has twice the damage... I've found this gritty enough.

As a sidenote, a hero in plate armor is quite safe from such amounts of killing damage... but once that stupid bunch of dozen goblins have beaten Brave, Brave Sir Robin unconscious with their treebranch clubs, are they going to stop there? Naaah, they'll keep pounding as long as it's fun!

[Ner0Sputnik]

The problem I have had is with people knocking out their opponents with a sword attack instead of killing them. Which, yeah, might be more realistic, but I run a more high heroic campaign and I prefer that the fights don't end with someone getting stabbed and knocked out. (And yes, I use the hit location chart.) But I don't want to omit all stun from killing attack combat because in the case of monks, etc... they do mostly stun damage.

I'm definitely going to try the "double your defenses" thing against bladed weapons. That sounds like a good idea. Thanks!

Ner0

[cndblank]

I'm more looking to address the sword knocking someone out and the Heroic PC's going around and cutting the throats of the KOed after the battle issue then anything else.

I also wanted to address the fact that in Heroic level campaigns, it is very easy to get knocked out.

We don't use the hit location but rather armor activation rolls. That might resolve a lot of it.

I have both FH and DC and I have tried the options suggested in there. I’m using many of the Healing options now.

I'm still testing doubling the stun, but it does seem the easiest and fastest way. People still get stunned which is good. Breaks up the combats. It keeps the fights exciting and while people can be knocked out it doesn't happen nearly as much. I also find it provides more tension as the PC gets to the last 10 points of stun or so.

I'm also note that most of my opponents will run away if they get below half body. Those that don't are scary.

Only the Knight has 7 Def. The Dwarf has 6 Def. The Mage has 10 Def when the FF is up (I may have to look in to that but the Mage has such low stats it really doesn't matter.) The rest have in the 3 to 5 range.

I've been using activations rather than hit locations. It is a starting campaign (75/75) so we will have to see after the they earn some exps.

The only problem with "double your defenses" is that only rarely will anyone get stunned.

Thanks

The problem I have had is with people knocking out their opponents with a sword attack instead of killing them. Which, yeah, might be more realistic, but I run a more high heroic campaign and I prefer that the fights don't end with someone getting stabbed and knocked out. (And yes, I use the hit location chart.) But I don't want to omit all stun from killing attack combat because in the case of monks, etc... they do mostly stun damage.

I'm definitely going to try the "double your defenses" thing against bladed weapons. That sounds like a good idea. Thanks!

Ner0