That Naval Feeling... (Opinions Wanted)

**ProfessorM@ss** · Feb 14th, '03, 01:26 AM

Okay...I'm eliciting opinions, because I'm trying to decide whether or not to submit an article to Digital Hero.

I love the new Star Hero, don't get me wrong. However, I think the spaceship creation rules are simplistic. They lack depth, and they lack the "naval" feeling of space operas like Star Trek and Star Wars.

Let me explain.

In TV shows like Star Trek, the ship is a character...and should be just as detailed as any PC. Star Hero is far too vague about ship-building. That's my first point.

My second point is that there's no naval feel to it. Big ships should have massive firepower and defenses, move slower, turn slower, etc. etc. Little fighter ships should be quick, pack a punch, and get blowed up real good.

Think Luke Skywalker vs. the Death Star. The Defiant vs. a Klingon battle cruiser. You'll get the idea.

Does anybody else see this as a gap in Star Hero that needs to be filled? Far more detailed rules for starship creation?

I doubt the Ultimate Vehicle will cover this...but maybe wiser minds than I know such things.

--->M@ss

**Aroooo** · Feb 14th, '03, 03:58 AM

I'd like to chime in here. Since I started working on my B5 conversions, I've been looking hard at those rules. Like most things Hero/Champions, the mechanics are about the effect, and not how (or why?) the effect was created. I've been used to more traditional starship construction rules, where you have a hull of X volume/mass, and you 'fit' stuff inside it. So its taken (taking) me a while to get over that hangup of mine to get stats for B5 ships written up.

But after a while, I'm starting to get into the swing of things "Hero style" and am trying not to sweat the little things. You don't need to quantify every little detail about a ship down to numbers and facts. I once tried to figure out how much Running a star fighter would need to taxi on a runway, so I could buy down its Running from 6". (Think Space: Above and Beyond pilot episode and you'll get the idea.)

However, what I would have liked to see were some more starship examples, to get a better feel for construction variations. Particularly when things like skill levels are used to represent maneuvering thrusters and other 'non hardware' (read: not Powers) abilities are used to represent hardware.

The other major SH addition I would have liked would have been a fairly detailed example of starship combat, using the Dogfight and/or Intercept rules, as well as a detailed 'complex' combat example. I know page space is limited, and as many examples as were in SH, it would have been nice to have some combat examples.

Enough rambling, back to work

Aroooo

P.S. I do have to add that I am not unsatisfied with SH in any way. in fact, its more that I origianlly hoped/thought it would be! Can't wait to get Ult. Vehicle! Maybe that will clear up some of my confusions

**Syberdwarf2** · Feb 14th, '03, 06:19 AM

You make a valid point. The starship construction rules are kinda vague. But IMO, that's the point. They could've put more in there in the way of example ships, or construction variants, etc., but that would detract from the premise of the book. SH was meant to be a genre book. For ships to have a 'naval' feel to them, or B5, or S:AB&B, whatever; that kind of stuff would depend on the sub-genre and the type of campaign being run.

Please don't get me wrong, sir. I do agree with you. It is annoying that I have to do writeups of ships from scratch. BUT, I also have to do NPCs, Campaign summaries, Setting info, and all other forms of homegrown campaign/setting goodness from scratch. It's just more paperwork for me. The downside of my particular situation (and I know I'm not alone here), is that I have a wife and 2 kids. I'm pushing, um.... 23 (uh, yeah, that's the ticket), okay 30. I have a full-time job with full-blown family responsibilities as well.
Now, I still have time to work on my hobbies, and I manage to balance it out with the family, or get them involved. However, I only have so much time.
Thankfully, there's TUV, TE, and soon to be released; The Spacer's Toolkit.

It is a pain in wahoo, to have to do all that work, though. But sometimes, that's the fun of it.

**Starwolf** · Feb 14th, '03, 06:46 AM

Such an article would be great. I am working on a Wing Commander conversion for Hero. The toughest thing to figure out has been ship speeds in kilometers per second to inches (that makes things happen pretty fast). And then factor in afterburners.....

I have a handle on it but more construction guidance giving attention to SF type ship speeds would have been welcome.

I also am entralled with Star Hero, I think it is the best Hero product ever put into print bar none.

**Aroooo** · Feb 14th, '03, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
You make a valid point. The starship construction rules are kinda vague. But IMO, that's the point. They could've put more in there in the way of example ships, or construction variants, etc., but that would detract from the premise of the book. SH was meant to be a genre book. For ships to have a 'naval' feel to them, or B5, or S:AB&B, whatever; that kind of stuff would depend on the sub-genre and the type of campaign being run.

Sorry if I was a little vague. Your point here is the point I was trying to make

The 'feel' of any campaign is up to the GM. The good thing about making ships - once you've done it, its done. I mean, once you design "ship type a" you don't need to design it again, like we do with NPCs.

Anyway, back to work

Aroooo

**Talon** · Feb 14th, '03, 06:51 AM

I'd recommend waiting for TUV before finishing the article; I do think there's space for what you're talking about, but TUV will at least offer some new perspective on how that space should be filled.

Your idea is certainly a lot more generally applicable than the "Orbital Mechanics Hero" article I'm working on.

**Aroooo** · Feb 14th, '03, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Starwolf
Such an article would be great. I am working on a Wing Commander conversion for Hero. The toughest thing to figure out has been ship speeds in kilometers per second to inches (that makes things happen pretty fast). And then factor in afterburners.....

I have a handle on it but more construction guidance giving attention to SF type ship speeds would have been welcome.

I also am entralled with Star Hero, I think it is the best Hero product ever put into print bar none.

A year or so ago, I was trying to do write ups for S:AAB ships (in another system). I got so hung up with the 'how many game inches per turn moved for real world speed' I gave up. The numbers were so daunting it looked unrealistic. I started revisiting that again (when SH was announced), and came to the [wonderful] conclusion that real world speed really didn't matter.

What counts (from Hero System perspective) is how fast ships are to each other, not to the universe. For example, in working up B5, I use the Starfury as a base speed, call it 20 combat inches of flight. Then, just give faster ships more fllight. The Minbari fighter would have 25-30 inches, Narn fighters would be around 15-18 inches, etc. Then, if you build the engines as a multipower (per SH reccommendations), your non-combat slot just has a big megascale advantage; 1"=lots of km. No one is ever going to map out traveling from a jump point to a planet's surface, so those 'numbers' just become GM description/color. You have the MP slot to represent non-combat travel, and be done. In this instance, don't sweat the big stuff

Let me know if that makes sense.

Aroooo

**nblade** · Feb 14th, '03, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Aroooo

What counts (from Hero System perspective) is how fast ships are to each other, not to the universe. For example, in working up B5, I use the Starfury as a base speed, call it 20 combat inches of flight. Then, just give faster ships more fllight. The Minbari fighter would have 25-30 inches, Narn fighters would be around 15-18 inches, etc. Then, if you build the engines as a multipower (per SH reccommendations), your non-combat slot just has a big megascale advantage; 1"=lots of km. No one is ever going to map out traveling from a jump point to a planet's surface, so those 'numbers' just become GM description/color. You have the MP slot to represent non-combat travel, and be done. In this instance, don't sweat the big stuff

Actually that's a good point for the HERO system in general. I think people tend to get caught up what the real values are and not what the playable values should be. While I don't use AP limits in my games (they are just silly), I do have a list of ranges that I use to gauge a character. They can be over or under those ranges, but I supply them to PC when designing thier characters to help them see what numbers are averages for Supers in my world.

**Agent X** · Feb 14th, '03, 03:05 PM

If you can stare hard enough at Star Fleet Battles to reduce its mechanics into a workable Hero ships, you can certainly get the "naval" feel you are looking for. It shouldn't be too hard - just time consuming. Anyone notice the similarities between SFB's Impulse System and the Phase-Turn System of Hero?

**AlHazred** · Feb 14th, '03, 07:34 PM

I remember taking a whole Saturday (about 6 or 8 hours), working through an entire Star Fleet Battles game with my more knowledgeable friend. He actually had all the rules memorized, and tended to win many more games than I. Those were the days...

**Agent X** · Feb 14th, '03, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by AlHazred
I remember taking a whole Saturday (about 6 or 8 hours), working through an entire Star Fleet Battles game with my more knowledgeable friend. He actually had all the rules memorized, and tended to win many more games than I. Those were the days...

Yeah, it was fun until you met the guy who had memorized 700 pages of rules and learned to play with a guy who won a Gold Hat, until the guy with a Gold Hat refused to play with anymore because he started winning. Then it became a living nightmare.

Scary Flashback!

It really wouldn't be hard to design a simulated SFB with Hero.

Make the vehicles have movement that costs endurance and force walls and ranged attacks that are all on the same endurance reserve. Then make sure the endurance reserve has a huge recovery. The endurance reserve (warp engines) is a bulky immobile focus and their might be sets of them - lowering the value of the focus. This is not a cost effective way to design a starship in hero but it could be a great deal of fun to play that way.

**Agent X** · Feb 14th, '03, 08:26 PM

I think I'm going to write up a ship for your consideration. May take me a day or two.

**Syberdwarf2** · Feb 14th, '03, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by Agent X
I think I'm going to write up a ship for your consideration. May take me a day or two.

I have my take on a 'White Star' if anyone's interested. Actually not THE white star, but WS was used for inspiration for my SH campaign. It's not a B5 write-up, just something fun and crunchy to chew on.

**Kage Neko** · Feb 14th, '03, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
I have my take on a 'White Star' if anyone's interested. Actually not THE white star, but WS was used for inspiration for my SH campaign. It's not a B5 write-up, just something fun and crunchy to chew on.

I would like to see it.

**Syberdwarf2** · Feb 14th, '03, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Kage Neko
I would like to see it.

Sorry, but I recently cleaned house on my game stuff, and threw out handwritten copies of 4th ed characters from published books. Apparently someone, either the Shadows or that pesky little worm Bester, mixed that up in there. Oops.

I'll keep my eye out for it though, if it turns up.