Fading Suns Hero

[Glabutz]

I've been throught the Dune tread, but the shields in Fading Suns don't exactly work the way they does in Dune.

So, if I can pick up somethings in there (the basics), it seems that it needs more.

First, it doesn't explodes when one use a beam weapon against them.

Then, I think that sucha shield should be something like 25 PD for 50 ED (it stops all the high vellocity projectiles, but the most powerful ones).

Also, to stike the bearer with an HTH weapon, the oponent should use the hold his stike option to hit. That means that he used his weapon slowly enough and the shield don't work.

If I remember well FS rules, the PD and ED should be less if more than a gun fire at one time on the bearer.

Any ideas ?

[Jhamin]

I'm not really familiar with fading suns, but if you want to stop high velocity weapons, you have a couple options.

Your plan with the forcefields will certanly work, but I might buy them with the limit "not vs. low velocity attacks" That way it works if they shoot you but not if they stab you.

If you want it to protect you from the worst of the damage but still take some, you can buy 75% damage reduction, also "not vs. low velocity attacks".

I might also build in some bonuses to DCV that only affects melee, to reflect that you need more skill to hit an opponent in a shield. Holding actions is fine, but if everyone has to do it all the time it gets repetitive. Increasing the DCV of the wearer means you need a more skilled attacker to compensate. That has the same effect, but still allows you alot of variety in your actions.

[Gannok]

I think that it should probably be about 15 PD/ED Force Field. Atleast for the smaller ones. I think for dealing with the minimum activation bit. I would say some sort of Modifier on the power should do just fine. Something like -1/4 disad. that Field doesn't activate unless it takes at least 5 Killing damage or 10 Stun. This is my suggestion. I'd have to think about it some more to decide what I'd do if I were to run a HERO version of FS. Of course, I like the system as it is.

[Glabutz]

I feel like 15 Ed is not enough against Bem can see in Space Hero (6D6 or 9 D6, for 21/32 to 36/54 normal damage...)

I'd rather thought of a distinction between low velocity (no PD) and high velocity weapons (maybe 25 or 30 ED/PD)

5 KD is quite a lot if you use that system, for a laser or a gun can do only 5 KD. I can't imagine that this is a low velocity missile...

That was one of my problems with FS.
But it also use a 20 sided dice and 1.000 6 sided dice for the damage, with the possibility to make a head critical shot for 0 damage

Even if I'm not entirely familiar with the HS, I prefer that system.

Sorry, but I do like logic

I'm so confused with the Companies that develop illogical (and sometimes awful) system for such great world (Hi, Deadlands ) when there is so much good ones out of there, and some of them free (Fuzion, if I remeber, is a good exemple, and so are Action! or Fudge).

[Gannok]

Well... If you remember FS, if you wanted to get through a shield using a gun, your best chance was to do almost no damage at all so that it would go under the minimum damage. That was why there was a fencing culture in that world. You were considered quite skilled if you could get under an opponents shield.

The other end was to try and over come the shield in other ways. Automatic fire could try and overwhelm the shield from to many hits in one round. The other way was to do more damage then the shield could stop. I've seen Large Swords with a strong character consistantly go over the top of a small shield.

Now, the small shields were only supposed to be good against pistols or falls. The Battle Shields should definately be bigger. I'd say on the range of 25-30 ED/PD. There were 4 classes of shields after all. Regular shields, dueling shields (which are essentially IIF instead of OIF), Battle Shields, and Assault Shields. The last two were the ones you could seriously hope to withstand any kind of serious damage from something bigger than standard small arms.

Of course if you do FS in HERO shields should also have an activation roll versus blasters. Like maybe 14- or 15- or there abouts.

[Killer Shrike]

I dont know much about Fading Suns, but this construct might model something similar:
<table><tr>
<td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font color="#000000" size=4><b><i>Possible Fading Sun's Shield: </i></b>(Total: 126 Active Cost, 50 Real Cost) <hr> Absorption 5d6 (Energy into Force Field), Can Absorb Maximum of 50 Points (35 Active Points); Absorbption Limit affected by Physical Absorbtion Total (no more than 50 points between the two) (-3/4), OIF (-1/2), Requires A Skill (DEX vs DEX, HtH Only) Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests -1/4) (Real Cost: 14) <br><b>plus</b><br> Absorption 5d6 (Physical into Force Field), Can Absorb Maximum of 50 Points (35 Active Points); Absorbption Limit affected by Energy Absorbtion Total (no more than 50 points between the two) (-3/4), OIF (-1/2), Requires A Skill (DEX vs DEX, HtH Only) Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests -1/4) (Real Cost: 14) <br><b>plus</b><br> Force Field (16 PD/16 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (56 Active Points); Only up to Amount Absorbed + Linked to Absorbs (-1), OIF (-1/2) (Real Cost: 22)&#160;</font></td></tr></table>

[Glabutz]

I trust you.

I have no other choice, sine i can't read your white font on the grey board.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Glabutz
I trust you.

I have no other choice, sine i can't read your white font on the grey board.

How about now?

[Glabutz]

Better, no doubt.



But i'm not sure with the staistic : it doesn't need a skill roll to be efficient. It's more likely like a Dune Shield that does not explose in a nuclear way when someone shoot at it. It's a very thin force field that turn on when something arrive quickly on the zone it is supposed to watch.

So, only slw hth fighting style can hit the bearer, wherever does te damage come from, because they do not activate the hield.

On the other hand, the most powerful weapons can just blow it of.

The shield is a little broch you have on your coat.

So, it should be an OAF.

it should be a 40 or 50 PD/ED, with 15 PD/ED resistant. No charge.

[Killer Shrike]

Dont discount it just yet, check it out:

Incoming attacks are absorbed. The Force Field will protect vs absorbed attacks up to the amount absorbed. At first, the FF cant stop all of the damage that might be absorbed, but it can stop almost all of the AVERAGE absorbtion roll (avg absorbtion roll on 5d6 = 17.5).

As damage is absorbed, the force screen gets 'warmed up', because the absorbed body gets fed into the FF as CHARACTER points.

The FF should quickly reach peak strength, since it only takes 20 absorbed Body to get the FF up to 30/30, and 30 is the max you could possibly roll for a 5d6 Absorb. The rest of the FF boost will just serve to keep the field 'warmed up' for awhile.

After 20 points are absorbed the FF is at peak efficiency, but the absorbs will continue to feed it another 30 points until the absorb equalizes at 50 points total absorbtion between the two absorbs. At this point the FF should be at 51 PD/ ED give or take a point; and the force screen gadget has reached terminal capacity; it cant absorb anymore until it has 'cooled off' -- because the absorb limit has been reached. Because the FF can only protect vs damage absorbed, the screen will offer no protection at all until it has 'cooled off'; ie some of the Absorbed points have bled off.

As the Absorb FADEs off at 5 points/TURN (from each Absorb), the force screen "cools off" and is usable again as long as the Absorbs are able to keep absorbing damage.

If a character were to take damage say in TURN 1, and hit peak charge in the middle of TURN 2, and then the fight was over, it would take between 5 Turns (1 minutes) to 10 Turns (2 minutes) for the Absorb to completely fade away ("cooling off") depending on whether the damage taken was all of one type or mixed (if the damage was all of one type (all Phys or all Energy), the excess will fade slower than if the damage were mixed). Either way, the FF will remain at or near maximum efficiency (at least 30 PD/ED; which matches the max possible roll on the Absorbtion dice) about 2/3 of this extra 'cool off' time.

The RSR on the Absorbtions is opposed, and I defined it as not taking Active Point Penalties, and ONLY IN HTH. This is how a skilled opponent can 'get under the shield'; by succeeding at a DEX vs DEX roll against the wearer of the force screen. This represents manuever and slowly pushing the blade through the screen like in the old movie DUNE. You could make this opposed OCV rolls instead to make it rely more on skill than raw reflexes. Technically speaking, the RSR should apply all the time but even if you do apply it at range (perhaps the attacker deflects thier shots, or lines it up perfectly like the Beast Raban (sp) does in the DUNE movie vs Duncan Idaho), attackers will take range penalties, where as the user of the screen takes no penalties at all and should win the roll.

To minimize this, you could add a few skill levels to the Compound Power limited to only resist Screen penetration at range (ie, only applying to the Absorbtion Opposed Skill Rolls vs Ranged Attacks).


Big Attacks, particularly while the shield is getting "warmed up" can still blow through the screen, and autofire/rapid fire can 'overload' the screen by filling up the Absorbtion faster than the points can fade off, eventually rendering the screen useless for a while.


As far as OAF is concerned, I have a problem with people buying Force Fields OAF; logically, the FF should prevent people from reaching inside of the FF to grab the item that generates it. Just a common sense application, YMMV. Personally, I wouldnt allow it as a GM because it doesnt make sense to me, and I wouldnt take it as a player, because I wouldnt want to risk someone grabbing my primary means of defense and taking it away from me in combat.

[Glabutz]

I'll need time to analyze all this.

but, for the OAF, it is possible to take it pff, in a duel.

But thiswould be really difficult, because :

1. You have to go through the force shield

2. You have to grab that tiny little thing, near the heart of your ennemy.

So, grab it of or killing him is quite the same...

[Killer Shrike]

If you make it OAF, it can be grabbed at a -2OCV either way. The FF would offer no protection vs this and would not make it any more difficult than taking away any other Focus, which is logically inconsistent.


So, if you make this forcescreen ability, and you put it in an OAF, then an enemy could fight you and try to get through massive defenses in order to hurt you OR just reach out and take it directly off at a mere -2OCV. Hmm.....I wonder which they will choose to do.

Force Fields do not form barriers, they have no actual mass or volume or surface tension.

If you want a 'solid field' effect, then you need Force Wall, and Force Wall is much much more expensive than FF, and when it is penetrated at all it collapses.

Logically, OIF is the better way to go IMO. The Focus could still be attacked directly at -2 OCV, but would get the benefit of the FF it generates, and couldnt be grabbed and taken away in combat.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Glabutz
So, grab it of or killing him is quite the same...

Actually, no it isnt. You are assuming that if you got through the screen at all you would kill the wearer in 1 hit, but that is actually very difficult to do in practice. Even a 2d6 KA wont kill or even necessarily incapacitate an average man on an average roll. The damage is random, and other mitigating factors apply, like Rolling w/ the Punch, other forms of resistant defense, such as body armor, and if using them Hit Locations.

However, with 1 successful grab at -2OCV you could deprive the character of his primary means of defense, which can mean certain death in a campaign where attacks are so powerful that people need to wear shields capable of bouncing 30 killing damage. (almost enough to kill the average man twice over).

[Gannok]

The idea of absorption does not work with this kind of shield. It's levels are static. It's protection isn't supposed to increase as it takes more damage. Just the opposite in some ways. Since the more it gets hit, the less power it has to absorb future hits. It's charge decreases until it runs out of power and the shield goes down.

As far as the OAF thing, they should all be OIF except the "dueling" shield, which should be IIF. The shields have all been displayed as some kind of belt or backpack. If you knew what a shield generator looks like then it would be pretty obvious. But, since it's strapped to the person wearing it, it should be an OIF instead of a OAF. The dueling also, were described as being well hidden. It would just as likely be hidden in a ornate ring, or wrist watch, as it was to be a brooch of some kind. It could be anything you were wearing. Which in my opinion makes it IIF.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Gannok
The idea of absorption does not work with this kind of shield. It's levels are static. It's protection isn't supposed to increase as it takes more damage. Just the opposite in some ways. Since the more it gets hit, the less power it has to absorb future hits. It's charge decreases until it runs out of power and the shield goes down.

Are you familiar with how Defenses linked to Absorption works?


The Absorption Mechanic mimics the 'overloaded' description given.



As the Absorption is capped off, the screen cant take it anymore and all damage gets thru until its had time to bleed off the excees energy its absorbed/stopped. Thus effectively it complies with your statement, "It's charge decreases until it runs out of power and the shield goes down". Mechanically speaking, when it has taken too much damage, it will temporarily shut down.

As the screen bleeds off excess energy, the shield comes on line again, but if more damage is taken soon thereafter, its capacity will be reached faster and it will shut down again.



Ignore the FF getting better. Feeding the FF from the Absorbtions just serves to keep the power self contained and usable by anyone without alteration and makes it cheaper to get enough FF to cover the max roll possible on the Absorb (without just paying for another 14 DEF outright).


Since the FF is based on the die roll for the applicable Absorbtion, the actual PD or ED count is immaterial. It only represents the ceiling of what it can POSSIBLY stop, but its still going to average around 17.5 DEF per segment because thats the average of the 5d6 of absorbtion.

Thus having more FF than the average possible roll is clearly only relevant in the case of an above average roll, because then the FF can match the Absorbption roll. The most it will ever stop in a segment is 30 PD 30 ED because that is the absolute maximum you can roll on 5d6, and thats not likely to happen very often either.

So, if you had a FF like this, it would:
*stop a variable amount of damage each segment,
*take a segment or two to hit peak performance (warming up/conforming around the body from the device),
*be prone to overloading from Massive Damage or automatic weapons fire,
*not instantly reset between uses, taking about 1 to 2 minutes to cool down to its starting state again,
*be circumventable by an adept HtH opponent (the Slow Blade Pierces The Shield)