Announcement From Hero Games

[Starwolf]

Can you arrange it so we can pre order?

I bought my Digital Hero Subscription through a freind's credit card.

If I am going to support you directly then I'll need to get online cash some other way. Any suggestions for the technologically challenged.

No Credit cards and No debt.

Cheers

QM

For those that wish to use paypal, but would like the convenience of a credit card, Paypal offers a "FREE" Mastercard/Debit card. I always use this card for my online purchases. You simply load however much money into your Paypal account, then use the card just like a normal mastercard. Your spending limit is whatever your current balance is. This also makes it so that sites like Hero don't need to be setup to take Paypal payments directly. You can also transfer monies directly from linked checking accounts into paypal.

Hope this helps

[SleepyDrug]

Steve,

question for you in regards to this anouncement. is there any chance of seeing e-books with some of the odd things we've asked about in the past such as color art of the various characters (such as the side art) or a collection of the 4th ed characters not getting released again (all in one spot).

[bryanb]

However it's not specified whether this includes international money orders or cheques drawn on banks outwith the U.S.

Could anybody clarify?

From experience international money orders are fine.

A couple of suggestions though to Hero Games - If they are still going to charge shipping for international orders they will need to include an option on their website that brings up the shipping charges on the order (such as a International order checkbox or something). Otherwise, with their current method of international ordering (which is essentially the same as an American doing an order via cheque or money order), the Online store brings up $0 shipping charges. Having to e-mail someone about charges is going to be a huge pain...

Regarding payment of Online orders for International customers - it might be more encouraging to the consumer to enable credit card payments. Now I know previously that this was disabled due to credit card fraud but...well...other online stores do it! They await confirmation that the card is correct (and has enough credit) before sending out the order. I don't know how they do it but I know it is possible...

Might I add that perhaps it would be prudent to offer a cut-off point for shipping internationally - for example, spend $150 on products and receive free shipping? I know that from experience I will try my best when making an order to reach the free shipping mark - thereby giving me more bang for my buck, the company is selling more goods (at the more beneficial Online Store rate) and everyone is happy!

Just my opinions - I hope they help!

Daz

[AmadanNaBriona]

I see part of the problem, specifically for Hero, is that the learning curve can be daunting for new players. Hopefuly Sidekick will help eliminate this, or at least encourage more gamers to step out on a limb and take a chance on the system because they are more willing to shell out $10 rather than $40.
My FLGS is facing either extinction or a move that will be a crapshoot for its survival. Rents are just too high in the area. As a result, getting any current Hero releases is dubious at best. I didn't even know about Sidekick till I came back to the website and the boards.
One thing I've seen as a long term gamer is the shift from "gaming as niche market" to "gaming as mass market". There have been several occurances of this. In each case, it has gone hand in hand with some form of genius marketing that has allowed the venerable RPG genre to leap its usual boundries...
White Wolf, WoD, caught fire , first with the Ann Rice fanatics, then spread to the rest of the angst ridden romantic outcast crowd. *Boom* big new market... mostly ex gamers, brough back to the fold by a genre and system that appealed to them.
Magic: The addiction. Besides tapping the youth market (PLEASE, can a have just 4 more booster packs, Mom?) it also hit at the top of the tech boom, and provided a mechanically sound game that geeks who had dropped from the hardcore gaming life could play to blow off some steam, and allowed them to spend vast amounts of money to obtain coveted rare cards. Which led to a monetary motherload for LGS's and WotC.
With said boom money, WotC takes over the D&D franchise and goes open source, thus in one fell blow revitalizing a dying system that comes with an immense base of loyal fans, creates a platform and market for aspiring game designers, and in the process created a marketing juggernaught that has steamrollered most of the smaller systems
Anyone think that it's not a coincidence that WotC started supersaturating the Magic system at about the same time that the frenzy over rare cards had died off with the dotcom cash?
Good thoughts I've seen posted...
1. start taking Paypal!!!!!!!
2. Start pushing Hero games at cons, which is one of the best ways, IME, to reach younger gamers. Perhaps use the boards to promote more of the veterans to run games at cons. Information is power... if we coordinate it, they will come. Perhaps providing coupons for Con GM's to hand out to the players at "sanctioned" Hero games?
3.Setting up some sort of subscription system. Even if its just signing up for a mailing list that annouces tha availibility of new releases. If you combined this with Paypal, it'd be pretty easy to send out a mailer to say "We just got *Where'sWaldo* Hero in from the printers! Click the paypal link to order and we'll ship in the next 3 days" or whatever.

I don't know much about the economics of the Open Source Code marketing idea, but it is a model that has proven quite sucessful to aiding WotC in their borg-like assimilation of as much of the market as they can grab. Perhaps going with something similar might draw in some of the freelance designer types. After all, Hero is MUCH more 'universal', systemically, than D20 and has a long and fairly good rep in the gaming industry. Any system that survives as long as HERO will have at the base a core of dedicated fans, and the very generality of the system encourages a higher percentage of HERO GM's to delve into the realms normally occupied by designers. We're used to NOT being spoon fed our games, at it shows by the cream rising to the top, as it were.

[humantorch101]

I would be more than willing to support the online store, but have a couple of questions as I live in London in the UK.

1. Have much extra is it for shipping costs.
2. How long does it take for the books to be delivered.

rgds
Torch

[Wanderer]

From experience international money orders are fine.

A couple of suggestions though to Hero Games - If they are still going to charge shipping for international orders they will need to include an option on their website that brings up the shipping charges on the order (such as a International order checkbox or something). Otherwise, with their current method of international ordering (which is essentially the same as an American doing an order via cheque or money order), the Online store brings up $0 shipping charges. Having to e-mail someone about charges is going to be a huge pain...

Regarding payment of Online orders for International customers - it might be more encouraging to the consumer to enable credit card payments. Now I know previously that this was disabled due to credit card fraud but...well...other online stores do it! They await confirmation that the card is correct (and has enough credit) before sending out the order. I don't know how they do it but I know it is possible...

Might I add that perhaps it would be prudent to offer a cut-off point for shipping internationally - for example, spend $150 on products and receive free shipping? I know that from experience I will try my best when making an order to reach the free shipping mark - thereby giving me more bang for my buck, the company is selling more goods (at the more beneficial Online Store rate) and everyone is happy!

Just my opinions - I hope they help!

Daz

As another international non-canadian buyer, I subscribe anything of the above 100%. Morever, there's no way I am going to buy anything online, ever, unless I'm given the option to pay online by credit card or paypal. That's an absolute given. Money orders or cheques or anything requiring substantial off-line time or effort are simply too much of a pain. morevoer, being knowdegeable of shipping charges as one finalizes the order is another given. No way making an order without knowing the (rough) total expense before committing the buy.

[Killer Shrike]

Hmm....something occured to me....

Has anyone considered the possible longterm effects of alienating brick & mortars?

It seems like the HERO line has been establishing cred and getting picked up by more game stores that last few years, and having the product on the shelf helps bring in new blood -- in fact might be the leading source of such.

B&M are able to stock HERO Games product if they know that they can sell a few copies to HERO fans. If the HERO fans stop buying their product from the stores, the stores will stop stocking HERO products -- they cant afford to stock product on the off chance that it will get bought by noobs.

Lack of publically visible product leads to less new blood leads to dwindling player base....


I know for a fact that I have been able to entice more players to the game because of the recent market presense -- its much easier to "sell" a game to prospective players if theyve seen it before. The psychological effect is theyve seen it on the shelves, so it's somewhat legit and has a presence. They may have been intrigued by the look of the game. They may have even browsed some of them and been completely baffled by the mechanics, but intrigued by the flavor and concept text. Now some guy is talking about showing them how to play -- that could be cool; a chance to get an idea what the game is all about the easy way -- by letting someone else do all the work.


For whatever reason, a lot of players (many of whom never even buy product anyway) are hesitant to outright unwilling to play a game that is perceived to be "dead" or not "supported" -- and the perception doesnt have to be accurate either.


Granted if it's "Direct Sales or Bust!" then I guess we'll cross that bridge if we come to it, but I'd like a warm and fuzzy that it's at least been considered as a possible outcome.


ADD ON: Also, lets hope that in the future that the crunch wears off; but even if that does occur it may be difficult to get B&Ms that were burned by HERO Product they purchased that didnt move (because fans started buying direct) to start stocking the product again. Ive seen this first hand (with other game lines) and it's a kicker. Many B&M stores are not run as a business should be, and their owners can be both petty and short sighted at times; convincing them that the "bite" was caused by their own inability to read market trends rather than being directly caused by which ever line they felt it on can be difficult to impossible.

[Mark Taylor]

Hmm....something occured to me....

It's occured to me too. If HERO System books disappear from the shelves of my FLGS it'll be that much harder to persuade new players to pick up the system or any of the books. My personal experience in my local area is that a lot of new players have been coming to HERO. But if they can't walk into the shop and look at the books and flip through them it will simply stop happening, end of story. No gamer I know of is ever going to buy a book related to a system they're unfamiliar with without having looked and flipped through it in a store first.

[Darren Watts]

A few responses to the above in no particular order:

1) We're looking into Paypal again. Some of our friends have had a great deal of difficulty with them, and our store software doesn't interact well with it. Since it involved so much reprogramming to bring in a service that had a sketchy reputation anyway, we rejected the idea. We'll reconsider, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

2) We're certainly aware of the ramifications of our policy on retailers. Our most basic response to the question of whether we're harming their sales is, "If we go out of business you'll lose our sales anyways." We're not discouraging anybody from supporting their FLGS if it's really the best option for them, but letting you guys, our core audience, know that we'd prefer you use the store. Best case scenario, this is a temporary downturn in a cyclical industry and in a few months sales will have risen back to the point where we can once again recommend you support retailers as well as us. If your store has whole-heartedly supported Hero to this point, stick with them, or perhaps divide your purchases between us as you see fit. Everybody needs to make that call on their own.

3) Ben's the best guy to answer specifics about how international orders and shipping work or could be changed, and he's out of the office today with a sore face. He can address concerns when he gets back in next week. In the meantime, we certainly understand reservations our fans in Canada or overseas have about using the e-stores, and you should all continue to support Hero in whatever way works best for you. These requests are primarily aimed at Stateside fans. I know if you went by this thread alone you'd think half our audience was abroad- if only it were so. Foreign orders represent less than 15% of our business, *including* Canada. We're certainly not trying to make it any harder to get our books abroad, believe me.

4) We're considering a number of options for some sort of subscription service. If we come up with one that satisfies our legal liability concerns, we'll let you guys know.

5) We have several e-book projects planned, most of them collections of convenience of stuff we've previously published elsewhere (like a book of maps or something) or other short stuff. We have no plans for e-books that would take any time out of our existing publication schedule for new books.

dw

[Fedifensor]

No, there aren't. One of the difficult things about this industry is that there's no real way to gather solid marketing data that would provide a reasonable basis for coming up with "real reasons" for something like this. Some of the various theories I've heard include:

1. The economy is poor (or, perhaps more accurately, is perceived as being poor). Normally games do comparatively well in poor economic times, but if a lot of gamers have lost their jobs, or fear losing their jobs, they stop buying and start saving.

Well, I've been a stay-at-home dad for the past two years, since the selection of jobs is poor and I'd have to pay roughly $10,000/year for day care. I don't buy as much gaming stuff as I used to for that reason.

2. There is too much product out there (not from us, necessarily, but in general), and since there's only so much gaming money to go around, that means most of us in the industry get a smaller slice of the pie.

I haven't played Hero in the past two years, other than a single game I ran at a convention. Everyone in my local area is on the d20 bandwagon, and my attempts to turn them to HERO haven't worked out.

3. Other forms of entertainment, such as computer games, have siphoned off some people who used to buy RPGs.

I've been playing City of Heroes since beta - it's the only way I can get my superhero fix these days. That said, I'd snap up a CoH sourcebook for HERO if one was ever made...

I don't know about everyone else, but your reasons are quite accurate as far as I'm concerned. Still, given the situation, I'll take another look at the online store and see if anything tugs at my wallet.

[Corven_Ren]

Well then it will be good news to you guys that I plan on buying all of my books directly from you. I just ordered 5th revised and as soon as I can I will be adding the Viper sourcebook to my ranks. Unfortunatly I cant buy that or anything else quite yet.

[Mantis]

If they are still going to charge shipping for international orders they will need to include an option on their website that brings up the shipping charges on the order (such as a International order checkbox or something). Otherwise, with their current method of international ordering (which is essentially the same as an American doing an order via cheque or money order), the Online store brings up $0 shipping charges.

Regarding payment of Online orders for International customers - it might be more encouraging to the consumer to enable credit card payments.

I'm an international customer who ordered by CC and who had the shipping charge come up on the order as recently as November last year. In fact, I just brought up the order screen for an order for Sidekick (to see how much it was) and it came up with $9.99 for the book, Shipping & Handling $10.90. Underneath my order details were the fields for my CC details.

Is this some peculiar HERO policy to discriminate against Bryan?

4) We're considering a number of options for some sort of subscription service. If we come up with one that satisfies our legal liability concerns, we'll let you guys know.

In the boardgame industry, which has had similar issues BTW - printing prices up, sales volume down - most companies have a pre-order system where they calculate the cost of printing the entire print-run, then offer the title at a pre-order discount (e.g.15-25%), with the caveat that the game won't print until x orders are received (where x * pre-order price = printing costs for entire run). However, they don't charge when you order. The charge time policy varies slightly from company to company, from when the game goes to the printers (which can be several weeks before it ships) to when the game is physically shipped. You order up-front, but you don't pay unless and until a product is actually produced.

Here's the explanation by one company who does this, MMP, which may explain it better. One assumes this is all entirely legal, since the model is used with some slight variations by three companies I know of (GMT, COA, and MMP).

[DrFaust]

I'm not the only one who wondered what sort of reaction this move will cause among the retailers and distributors, I see. You guys have to do what you think is right, natch.

The bundle idea is a good one. I look forward to that option becoming available as soon as possible.

[shem_whistler]

I would be more than willing to support the online store, but have a couple of questions as I live in London in the UK.

1. Have much extra is it for shipping costs.
2. How long does it take for the books to be delivered.

rgds
Torch

Agreed, I'm another UK based gamer and would be interested in the shipping costs/time scales for UK purchases.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I admit that since money's been very tight for me for the last 4 or 5 months, I haven't been buying much HERO stuff; that's set to change around the end of March or first of April. At that time, I will gladly support my favorite game company by buying direct from them! I'm hoping (and not being sarcastic) that two months won't make a difference in the fortunes of HERO...?

I, too, have thought -- as noted by others -- about the effect this might have on my FLGS. In overall sales from me, it won't hurt them much, since I also play the collectible game Mechwarrior (where the bulk of my spending at the FLGS goes) and it looks like I'm getting back into Magic; I doubt they'll notice a difference in total sales from me. I realize they may stop ordering HERO stuff, so I may still buy the occassional item from them; we'll see how it works out.

It means a two-month wait from now, but I will be doing my part to support DOJ Games!

P.S. Are you going to be releasing .pdf versions of all your books for sale? As others have pointed out, .pdfs are searchable, and if need be I can print out one or two pages of a book for reference for a particular game session.