Dark Champions - Please no Harbinger of Justice...

[CPaladino]

I was flipping through my DC book last week, and saw the Harbinger of Justice.

I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books.

He's what, 800 pts? Way too high for any dark-champions game I'd be running. He has a Variable Power Pool for his guns which he warps in from another dimension to use. What do I even say to THAT? Dark champions don't teleport guns from anywhere. They pull them out of their holsters.

Am I in the minority on THIS issue too?
I just would like dark champs. to be very Punisher-esque. Punisher fighting a low-powered super is ok, but Harbinger is just too hokey for my tastes...

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by CPaladino
I hope that guy doesn't make any return appearances in any DC books.

Well, if I'm not mistaken that's Mr. Long's own character, and he actually *earned* all those points over a long time in play. So I don't really mind so much seeing him, although a "Harbinger lite", basically him as he's just starting out rather than after years and years of odd events that gives him access to super tech extradimensional spaces and hundreds of Contacts, might be fun to see.

On the other hand, I'm not much of a Dark Champions kind of guy, myself, so maybe I'm biased.

[Hermit]

mmmm... "Harbringer: Year One" could work

[CPaladino]

I was aware that Steve wrote the book, I didn't know he played that character through all those experience points though... Doesn't change a whole lot though.

While I DO have a problem with 800+ points for a DC setting, I have MORE of a problem with the concept. Warping guns in from another dimension to use in combat is just not DC stuff.

It's pretty 4-color to me. Batman, or Nightwing is about as 4-color as I'd want to get in a Dark Champs. setting. I'm a HUGE Punisher fan, so I like the idea of doing the level just above the "modern" era. I mean, Lethal Weapon is good and all, but I'm personally loving the idea of super-powered Lethal Weapon.

Punisher is good because he interacts with the 4-color guys, lives in their world, and fights against some pretty tough guys (where he needs to call in 4-color backup), but the setting is grim and dark.

The DC book as a whole was just awesome. It hit on exactly what I wanted 90% of the time. Harbinger just seemed "out of place" in that book. I mean, he just screamed "too 4-color" for me, even though his personality and motivation may have fit in the DC world, he didn't...

[death tribble]

You are probably in the minority as there are several Harbinger fans around.

just beware of anyone singing Blue Moon....

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by CPaladino
While I DO have a problem with 800+ points for a DC setting, I have MORE of a problem with the concept. Warping guns in from another dimension to use in combat is just not DC stuff.

I see the Harbinger as a bridging character that came from Dark Champions roots and grew into what he is today after many, many adventures. It's the kind of thing that happens in games that you just won't see in comics, because people want character growth and don't want the writers coming in and stripping them of years of continuity like they do in comics. That's part of why I wouldn't mind: he may seem out of place now, but he wasn't, originally. Something that gives more of a feel for that growth, such as doing a Year One version, could certainly be useful.

Think of Batman, though: he really is a better example than the Punisher for this. The original character was pretty Dark Champions (Villain falls to his death, and his comment is along the lines of, "That saves society the expense of a trial"), but has grown into a Four Color character over the years.

[CrosshairCollie]

Honestly, I think the Harbinger was there for two reasons:
1. Kind of a Smorgasbord. Excepting the infinite-gun VPP dealy, he had a little of everything skill-power-talent wise, so someone who hit a mental block could look over his sheet and go, 'A-HA! THAT'S what I'm missing!'
2. Plot device. He's there to lure the PCs places you want them to go, give cryptic advice, and/or get shot to pieces so your PCs know that they're in deep kimchee now.

Just what is 'dark' varies, I think. Depending on the writer, Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Batman are as Dark Champs as the Punisher; they just don't use guns. I think it's more a matter of setting and atmosphere than powers, points, or abilities. There's nothing saying Dark Champs characters have to be gun-toting killers. I remember an old Captain America miniseries where he went street-level investigating the drug trade. Sounds like something the Punisher does ... but it was good ol' Cap. Things got a *lot* more complicated, but anyway, let's move on, shall we?

For instance, Spider-Man very often is Dark Champs; down on the street-level of importance and influence, not making a huge difference in the way people's lives are lived, that sort of thing. Then, he guest stars in Avengers or joins the latest Cosmic Crossover (a la Secret Wars), and converts to Four-Color Mode.

[Hermit]

Let's not forget, for some, before Steve Long, not as many played in the style of 'Dark Champions'. Steve could have started Harbringer out in a rather gray Champions game, wanting to RP a 'true' vigilante, to see where it would go. Then again, maybe not But if he did, it would certainly explain some unreal elements if the character was teamed up with the likes of energy projectors and super powered bricks at the start of his career.

[FTJoshua]

As usual, I don't have the book with me; but isn't the "interdimensional teleport" aspect of the VPP just a cinematic effect of Harbinger "just happening to have" whatever gun he needed at the time? My understanding was that the VPP was not cosmic at all, it functioned as a special effect similar to the Vanishing Teleport also mentioned in DC. It's still technically a Teleport, but the effect is that the PC had to be able to get from point A to B; likewise, Harbinger doesn't really reach across dimension, he just always happened to bring the right gun for the right occasion. I always thought it was just kind of a Never Run Out Of Bullets/Hollywood gimmick.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by FTJoshua
As usual, I don't have the book with me; but isn't the "interdimensional teleport" aspect of the VPP just a cinematic effect of Harbinger "just happening to have" whatever gun he needed at the time?

No, it's actually a teleport system, though I don't think it is actually extradimensional. The guns are described as having teleportation equipment installed so that he can bring them from one of his bases and send them back at need.

[ZootSoot]

Um, is it just me? I always read old HoJ not as a mentor/npc hero but as a villain in DC; I thought he was mean to be the guy who had taken the vigilante thing too far and stepped over the line separating good from evil.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Um, is it just me? I always read old HoJ not as a mentor/npc hero but as a villain in DC

That's certainly a use for him, but I don't believe it was the original intent. I tend to think of all the characters like him (the Punisher, the Vigilante) that way, though.

[CrosshairCollie]

Well, really, where that 'line' is is gonna vary from game to game ... I've always been of the 'anybody who kills crossed the line', but I'm not a Dark kinda guy.

A lot of what the Harbinger is or isn't depends on your GM and style of game. If the PCs are all of the 'kill 'em all and let the mythological powers sort 'em out' type, then his particular brand of overkill is fine. If your game's more moderate, and you're trying to pull the 'There, but for the grace of said mythological powers, go I', where you're trying to show the PCs the result of a lack of moderation, then he's your sterling example of crossing the line.

[Beetle]

I always thought HoJ was hilarious. Dark Champions starts with about 40 pages describing how to do a gritty, "street-level", low powered game. Then the first sample character is an 800 point monstrosity who teleports guns into his hands. That was "laugh out loud" funny!

[Lord Liaden]

I've always wondered whether and how much the Harbinger was changed for his writeup in Dark Champions; earned experience or not, I find it hard to imagine him working with any group of PCs as written, even other vigilantes. Harbinger's view of what constitutes a crime, and appropriate punishment, is so extremely black-and-white that I doubt he would be able to cooperate with anyone who wasn't an attitudinal clone of him.

He just might have gotten along with the Protectors after their exposure to the Skull Pendant, though. FWIW, I used the Harbinger of Justice in one campaign I ran, essentially as a "villainous" opponent for the PCs. I decided that he was the Marksman (NPC hero mentioned in various old Champs books and in the Champions comic-book) after alteration by that same Skull Pendant.