Invulnerability

[Sketchpad]

I was looking at using EC for Invulnerability, but, unfortunately, if going by the book, you can't put 0 END powers in an EC. Anyone have a good, efficient way of building Invulnerability? Does anyone house rule ECs being used for armor and such?

[Doppler]

Depends upon what you mean by invulnerability. I've adopted the house rule from the Global Guardians universe: 100% damage resistance costs 120 points. Buy it seperately for PD ED and mental attacks.

Everything else can be covered under life support.

That means, of course, to be totally invulnerable to damage, you'd need to spend 390+ points; 360+45=405 for all DRs and full life support.

[Mike W]

The entry for EC says that you can't buy Powers "which inherently cost no END as a slot in an EC unless they take the Limitation costs end or the GM allows it." With a good rationale, it shouldn't be hard to put armor or other defenses in an EC. Just about any GM I've ever met allows it. So do I.

[Dust Raven]

I'm not sure how invulnerable any character can get in Hero System, but you'll be needing to spend LOTs of points to do it anyway and an EC would most likely be pointless after a while.

However, I do allow a Regeneration EC that has Damage Reduction and Armor in it (simulating instantaneous regen and the ability to ignore damage and pain because of it). As long as it's tightly linked with whatever else is in there (the entire EC is the invulnerability, nothing else) then it should be okay, but it's the GM's call no matter what.

[Sean Waters]

You can make the powers 'costs END to activate' (assuming you are thinking of armour and damage reduction) if you feel bad about just waiving the rule....and of course you save points on the limitation!

BTW I have to register my old disagreement with allowing full (100%) damage reduction for 120 points, or any number of points for that matter.

You can't buy invulnerability as there sare so many ways of buying damaging powers - NNDs, drains and so on, which may have the same basic sfx as a RKA, for example,but be defended against very differently.

Can I suggest that instead of increasing Dam Red to 100%, you buy it at 75% say for physical attacks. Bear in mind that 'physical attacks' is basically a sfx. Apply a +2 advantage that then allows you to apply it to AND damage (physical, energy, adjustment, mental DAMAGING powers (not mind control, for example) and so on. It should also apply to NND damage. That is much more in keeping with the Hero ethos to my mind.

75% DR is powerful.

100% DR can be boring. I'd never let a player have it and I just wouldbn't bother trying to model it if it was a GM character, I'd just say that's how it worked if I really needed to.

[Sketchpad]

I don't think I'd have a problem with 100% if it were a case by case issue. Like taking someone like the human torch and saying that he has 100% DR vs. Flame (-1/2) for 80 pts isn't so bad. On the otherhand, I don't think I'd allow full DR. As it is, I'm thinking of HRing the EC for Invulnerability (LS, DR & Armor), but there must be a achilles' heel that can penetrate the EC

[Enforcer84]

I like Steve's example in Fantasy Hero. The amazing Forcewall defense. Prohibitively expensive but it gets the job done.

[The Hyborian]

You can make the powers 'costs END to activate' (assuming you are thinking of armour and damage reduction) if you feel bad about just waiving the rule....and of course you save points on the limitation!

BTW I have to register my old disagreement with allowing full (100%) damage reduction for 120 points, or any number of points for that matter.

You can't buy invulnerability as there sare so many ways of buying damaging powers - NNDs, drains and so on, which may have the same basic sfx as a RKA, for example,but be defended against very differently.

Can I suggest that instead of increasing Dam Red to 100%, you buy it at 75% say for physical attacks. Bear in mind that 'physical attacks' is basically a sfx. Apply a +2 advantage that then allows you to apply it to AND damage (physical, energy, adjustment, mental DAMAGING powers (not mind control, for example) and so on. It should also apply to NND damage. That is much more in keeping with the Hero ethos to my mind.

75% DR is powerful.

100% DR can be boring. I'd never let a player have it and I just wouldbn't bother trying to model it if it was a GM character, I'd just say that's how it worked if I really needed to.

I agree. I would never allow 100% Dammage reduction.

I think that the EC would be ok for Invulnerablity if you defined the Special effect well and purchased powers that simulated it. Why is your character (nearly) invulnerable to physcial harm. Dense molecular structure? Incredibly powerful rengeration? Admanitum Armor fused with your skin? As long as it was interesting, not just a huge lump of Armor backed up with a huge lump of dammage reduction I think I would allow the EC. And if you just wanted the afore mentioned huge lumps of armor and Damage Reduction you could always pay full price.

[Derek Hiemforth]

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I allow 100% Damage Reduction for 60 points, and it's always resistant. However, it must be purchased to cover only a single "relatively common" SFX of the damage type. So you could have 100% Damage Reduction vs. Fire, but not vs. all Energy. Or vs. Piercing Weapons, but not vs. all Physical, etc. You get no Limitation for the SFX being restricted in this manner, but if your invulnerability works only against an even more restricted type of SFX, then you can take a Limitation based on how much less common it is.

[Dust Raven]

I like Steve's example in Fantasy Hero. The amazing Forcewall defense. Prohibitively expensive but it gets the job done.

Invulnerabilty should be prohibitively expensive, as invulnerability should be prohibited (well, really really restricted maybe).

[Wanderer]

If I remember correctly, either in Galactic Champions, Fantasy Hero or Ultimate Brick it is stated that either a Force Wall with enough defense to stop all BODY damage from an attack, or a combination of 30 rPD/rED, Hardened and 75% Damage Reduction, Resistant, should be treated by GM as absolute invulnerability from an attack.

Alternatively, one may use Desolidification, Only To Protect vs. a type of Damage (-1). In case of limited Desolidification, the GM is strongly encouraged to waive Affects Physical requirement.

I generally use the second (Resistant Defense+Damage Reduction) or latter (Desolid) options.

[BNakagawa]

I like the 'flavored' only type of 100% damage reduction. It's far more elegant than anything else for something like the human torch being invulnerable to flame.

Also, it's sufficiently narrow to preclude it being completely cheesy. (assuming the GM isn't crazy enough to allow a whole bunch of them on the same character)

[Sean Waters]

I like the 'flavored' only type of 100% damage reduction. It's far more elegant than anything else for something like the human torch being invulnerable to flame.

Also, it's sufficiently narrow to preclude it being completely cheesy. (assuming the GM isn't crazy enough to allow a whole bunch of them on the same character)

Still won't work against penetrating fire.

Anyway, it is just a shorthand. The Human Torch has 75% DR vs flame and 20 points of hardened armour vs flame: flame is never going to be a problem for him, he's goging to get his lights punched out or electrocuted or something. You don't need new rules and you don't need 100%DR, but if it makes you happy, go for it.

[OddHat]

I recently did up a character with an Opaque 24PD/24ED Hardened Personal Force Wall, then added "double" Indirect as a naked advantage to his STR, LS, N-Ray Vision and LS. This gives something very close to true invulnerability in any standard campaign. Add some lack of weakness for the whole package, and it's possible on under 350 points.

You can use Indirect+AP to get his own STR past the FW if you don't like the custom double indirect method.

[Sean Waters]

Invulnerability is one of those unnecessary Nirvana things that people from other systems often point out as a flaw in Hero. It isn't, it's good design. If a character never gets hit by enough fire damage to get through his defences, he's immune to fire, far as he and everyone else knows. 'Needing' invulnerability is just meta-game thinking.