Invulnerability

[Sketchpad]

I disagree ... I think that Invulnerability simulates certain characters' ability to resist damage. In fact, IIRC, 3rd ed Champions had ECs with Invulnerability in them I see it as a genre convention more so than anything else ...

[Sean Waters]

This one will bounce back and forth all night!

In previous similar arguments (in some of which I have championed having invulnerability in the system - go figure!) I've said I can't think of any comic book examples of actual invulnerability, but lots of examples where the word 'invulnerability' has been used to describe what are basically high defences, so I do not think it is a genre convention, unless you define the convention as 'mis-naming the power'.

Anyway, argue with me and I'll blast you with my Fiery Bolt of Crimson Flame (actually I'll be turning my invisibilty on and sloping off, but calling it and FB of CF and people all abort to defensive actions. Kewl.)

[OddHat]

I disagree ... I think that Invulnerability simulates certain characters' ability to resist damage. In fact, IIRC, 3rd ed Champions had ECs with Invulnerability in them I see it as a genre convention more so than anything else ...

I'm not sure it is anymore. Even Supes has been getting beaten bloody when full powered since the late 80s, and I remember him getting beaten up fairly badly when facing one or two non-magic/Kryptonite based foes in the height of the Silver Age.

[Sean Waters]

To contradict myself, we already have invulnerability in the system in the form of Life Support. To be honest if it was going to really burn someone up (yes, I know) NOT to have invulnerability (whatever that means) to fire, I'd say they could have it for 10 or 15 points as an extension of the LS: Heat power. Fire is quite common but there are an awful lot of special effects out there and frankly if some guy has a burning damage shield and hurls fire at enemies, the villains ain't generally stupid enough to target him with fire attacks, so no biggie, really.

If the player then extended the logic to every other sfx I used, I'd just demonstrate how useful 'invulnerability' would be to them, especially from kicks and especially covering hit location 13.

Honestly I don't think you need it. What use is it anyway? You're invulnerable to fire, go into a burning building and you'd best be immune to suffocation too as there really isn't enough oxygen to support the raging inferno and your lungs. What about smoke inhalation? What about stuff falling on you as the building collapses. The direct damage from fire/heat will probably be the least of your problems.

[Sketchpad]

I guess I should clarify my stance a bit on Invulnerable. I don't see it as "Takes No Damage ... Can't Be Hurt". I see Invulnerability, at least in a 4-color genre, as being extremely hard to hurt and usually having some environmental immunities as well. A few examples for what I see as Invulnerability are Superman, Juggernaut, Martian Manhunter, Hercules, The Hulk and Ferro/Ferro-Lad.
I believe that each of these characters have had some come uppance in comics these days. But to me, they're considered invulnerable. Hence why I construct EC: Invulnerability with DR (50%r), Armor and LS, as most of the above fall into this category. As I said earlier, I usually require something that the Invulnerability doesn't work against (Superman: Magic, Martian Manhunter: Fire, etc.) which allows the character to take a Limitation to lower the cost and allow them to spend less (especially since most invulnerable heroes are usually bricks and can use a few points in STR ).
As for arguements and convention naming ... there's no arguement here Just one flavor against another

[Sean Waters]

I guess I should clarify my stance a bit on Invulnerable. I don't see it as "Takes No Damage ... Can't Be Hurt". I see Invulnerability, at least in a 4-color genre, as being extremely hard to hurt and usually having some environmental immunities as well. A few examples for what I see as Invulnerability are Superman, Juggernaut, Martian Manhunter, Hercules, The Hulk and Ferro/Ferro-Lad.
I believe that each of these characters have had some come uppance in comics these days. But to me, they're considered invulnerable. Hence why I construct EC: Invulnerability with DR (50%r), Armor and LS, as most of the above fall into this category. As I said earlier, I usually require something that the Invulnerability doesn't work against (Superman: Magic, Martian Manhunter: Fire, etc.) which allows the character to take a Limitation to lower the cost and allow them to spend less (especially since most invulnerable heroes are usually bricks and can use a few points in STR ).
As for arguements and convention naming ... there's no arguement here Just one flavor against another

As is often the case we are arguing over nothing, as we clearly agree! How do I get myself into these things?

[Sketchpad]

As is often the case we are arguing over nothing, as we clearly agree! How do I get myself into these things?

It's that target you're wearing on your shirt ... who do you think you are, Remo Williams?

[Shocker]

As a gm I'd have no trouble with the 100% Damage Reduction for 120 points per type plus Life Support option. I've never run a game where the players had enough points to do all that and have more than 50 or so to build the rest of the character.

I once used the Force Wall option to make a really tough character and the GM asked me what my weakness was. My reply was that I also had the Characteristic Maxima Disad so I was basically a really tough agent in a super world. All my gadgets were OAF and could be broken once they were taken away from me as the Force Wall no longer covered them.

My worst nightmare in the game (character had a Psych Disad actually) was being Entangled. 5D6 of a typical Entangle meant I was out for the fight really.

[Dust Raven]

The only reason I'd be okay with buying 100% DR is that you could easily spend those points on actual defenses that already exist in the game and effectively be "invulnerable" to whatever you might come up against in a normal campaign (normal being most standard and high powerd campaigns with power levels listed in the rulebook).

In my opinion, when a character is called Invulnerable it should be followed by "to [SFX]". Things like Invulnerable to Fire or Invulnerable to Electricity or even Invulnerable to Physical Impacts would all be perfectly fine. Each can be done by buying enough of the appropriate Defenses to match the campaign and leaving it at that.

Would would make an excellent resource is to have a table or list of appropriate levels of defenses that would consider a character "invulnerable" for each level of damage classes. That way all a player or GM as to look at is a list to find out how much total DEF a character needs to be effectively invulnerable.

[zornwil]

Personally, I like Hugh's suggestion at http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...&postcount=151 and the only reason I haven't updated my game with it is just plain laziness plus what I have now is reasonably similar and works - but what he came up with is the best iteration I've seen along these lines.