Torg HERO

[Delthrien]

I'm almost certain I've come across a conversion for Torg using the Hero System but I'm coming up with a big goose egg in my search -- both on these boards and the net in general.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks (or "Thnaks" as I more commonly spell it...)

[NuSoardGraphite]

I remember Torg.

Torg was an absolute mess. Moreso even than RIFTS. At least RIFTS was cool as a setting even though its mechanics were #&@%'d. Torg was so haphazard as to be nearly unplayable. I do however remember a few interesting ideas hidden in there that would make good campaign fodder...

[Lord Liaden]

Coincidentally, this same question/ request was recently posted on RPGnet. Was that you by any chance, Del?

Unfortunately I have to give you the same response that I gave over there: I've been searching the Internet myself, both via Google and through all the Hero websites I know of which list links to other sites. So far I got nothin'.

It's possible that some such conversions did exist at one time, but have since been taken down by their creators. I've run into a few "dead links" of that sort in recent years.

[Delthrien]

Nope, it wasn't me, LL. I think I ran across that post on RPGNet myself. In my web wanderings, I've found an initial (and possibly aborted) attempt to do a D20 version of Torg. I vaguely recall seeing something on the web a few years back in which the Hero System was used as the game mechanics. I'll have to check my old back-ups to see if I saved a copy.

NSG, I was never overly thrilled with the Torg mechanics, though I did think the setting was worth salvaging. I may be slightly biased, though. My initial experiences with Torg were with Greg Gorden acting as GM. It probably helped a tremendous amount that the guy running the game was one of the game's creators.

[Doctor Mobius]

I have to say that Torg is probably my second favorite game out there. For the most part, the work is already done for you; you can find magic and equipment scattered throughout the Hero books. The problem is going to be the things you say you disliked from the original game: the mechanics.

The first thing you would have to consider is how to handle disconnecting and the Cosm Axioms. In Torg the Reality Skill is used for 1) Reconnecting 2) Fighting other characters with Reality Storms 3) Resisting Reality Storms 4) Deactivating Stelae. This means you will need to develop a Reality based Skill and Power in the Hero version. The Reality Skill will be needed for reconnecting, whereas the Reality Power will need to be some kind of Transform - person of one reality to a person of a different reality.

You also need to think about if you want to bring over rules such as the Drama Deck, World Laws, Possibility Points (and using them to effect game rolls).

If you are still looking for ideas, we can bounce a few back and forth.

[Delthrien]

I have to say that Torg is probably my second favorite game out there. For the most part, the work is already done for you; you can find magic and equipment scattered throughout the Hero books. The problem is going to be the things you say you disliked from the original game: the mechanics.

The first thing you would have to consider is how to handle disconnecting and the Cosm Axioms. In Torg the Reality Skill is used for 1) Reconnecting 2) Fighting other characters with Reality Storms 3) Resisting Reality Storms 4) Deactivating Stelae. This means you will need to develop a Reality based Skill and Power in the Hero version. The Reality Skill will be needed for reconnecting, whereas the Reality Power will need to be some kind of Transform - person of one reality to a person of a different reality.

You also need to think about if you want to bring over rules such as the Drama Deck, World Laws, Possibility Points (and using them to effect game rolls).

If you are still looking for ideas, we can bounce a few back and forth.

By the mechanics, I was thinking more of the need to roll the d20 to generate a total that would give you a bonus that would then be applied to the base ability... seems like a long way to travel to get to the final result. My main complaint (if it could be called that) was that the basic mechanic seemed to make things needlessly muddy. Could just be my inherent laziness.

Reality Skill
This doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to implement -- perhaps make it EGO-based. I think the hardest part would be determining how difficult it would be to do things like reconnect, since the axioms can vary so wildly. The other applications (reality storms, etc.) seem more like an opposed test. The actual consequence of failure in the case of Storms would be the transformation. I don't know that an actual power would need to be worked up for that.

The Drama Deck
Well... that seemed like a mixed bag to me. There were some nice things about it, but I was never really keen on "approved actions." I have to admit, though, they were pretty good for sparking the cinematic bits in an encounter -- especially when the players had to come up with an "in game" rationale for being able to use their cards to help another player.

World Laws
I think you'd almost have to use these if you wanted to maintain the flavor of the game.

Possibilities
I suspect this would be the most difficult to implement. One could go with one of the variant mechanics for "Luck" but since Possibilities were also used for character improvement, that wouldn't quite get it done. I suppose one could set it up so that XPs could be spent in the same way as the Possibilities in Torg, but it might be necessary to tweak the XP awards for a given adventure.


If you (or anyone else) have any ideas to toss out, I'd love to hear 'em.

[Phil]

Reality Skill
This doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to implement -- perhaps make it EGO-based. I think the hardest part would be determining how difficult it would be to do things like reconnect, since the axioms can vary so wildly. The other applications (reality storms, etc.) seem more like an opposed test. The actual consequence of failure in the case of Storms would be the transformation. I don't know that an actual power would need to be worked up for that.

I feel the conversion of Torg to HERO would actually be quite simple. All you need to do is take HERO as is, modify one or two mechanics and add in rules for the new ones.

The Reality Skill perhaps features as one of the main new mechanics. I can think of two options. A more literal translation makes it a skill, with special rules. A slightly more flexible translation treats it as a power: more flexible because this gives you much more scope in terms of the range of reconnection difficulty numbers. I'd probably go with the skill though!

Difficulty reconnections currently range from 3 to 25 in Torg. In probability terms for an average starting character (say, skill +stat = 11) this ranges from 90% chance of success to virtually zero chance of success. Assuming similarly that an average starting Torg HERO character will have 11-, and 90% chance is 14- gives the following rough conversion:

Torg
Reconnection DN...HERO Skill penalty
3-5...+3
6-8...+2
9......+1
10....+0
11-12..-1
13.......-2
14-15..-3
16-17..-4
18-19..-5
20-21..-6
22-23..-7
24-25..-8

[Edit: this table is based on comparing probabilities of achieving results on 3d6 bellcurve against probabilities for Torg, as calculated by Kansas Jim, Torg Guru: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~jogle/TORG/]

You would probably want to redraw the Reality Storm Table to fit, but opposed rolls would definitely be order of the day. Of course, because the TORG bonus value chart is essentially designed to convert a linear d20 roll into a bell curve, it actually fits HERO Skill - Skill pretty well and might not need much alteration.

The Drama Deck
Well... that seemed like a mixed bag to me. There were some nice things about it, but I was never really keen on "approved actions." I have to admit,

Interesting view, because for many people this is the real innovation that Torg brought along. Personally I love it. Conversion is easy.

Approved actions: These are only relevant to the meta-game of card play, so if you keep cards you can keep approved actions. In theory. The difficulty being the greater prevalence Torg puts on interpersonal skills as combat interactions: trick, test of wills, intimidate and maneuver. Personally I think this can still be done: substitute Intimidate and Test for Presence Attack; substitute Maneuver for any Agility skill; Trick could be substituted for any Intellect skill. Give NPC a situational penalty for the next action for success if the skill use itself doesnt provide some advantage, but gaining a card is the main reward.

Initiative: You could give a bonus of +5 Dex only for purposes of determining order of actions to whoever is marked as coming first on the initiative line, or you could ignore it. The special actions on the initiative line could be ignored also, or interpreted as follows:
- Inspiration: Gain free post-12 recovery
- Flurry: gain additional half-phase action (or full phase, but in context of HERO that could be unbalancing)
- Fatigue: Takes 2 STUN damage
- Stymied: -1 on all Skills and -1 to every damage die
- Up: +1 on Skill Rolls and +1 to every damage die
- Confused: Keeps original meaning - players cant play cards into card pool
- Break: Keeps original meaning - villains flee if they dont hit PCs in their next action

Dramatic Skill resolution: Again, can function as was, with following modifications:
- Complication: if action fails, add 1 to difficulty
- Critical Problem: keep original meaning - if action fails, have to complete task with different skill
- Last ditch effort: increase difficulty by 2, plus 1 for each step attempted.

Card meanings: Mostly can be interpreted fairly straightforwardly. Treat a +3 as perhaps +1 to Skill Values and/or +1 to Damage dice.

Possibilities
I suspect this would be the most difficult to implement. One could go with one of the variant mechanics for "Luck" but since Possibilities were also used for character improvement, that wouldn't quite get it done. I suppose one could set it up so that XPs could be spent in the same way as the Possibilities in Torg, but it might be necessary to tweak the XP awards for a given adventure.

I think you should try to pretty much bring possibilities over as complete. So, 1 possibility can:
- add 2 to a skill roll and, if applicable, every damage die.
- achieve 3 effects out of: Remove 2 BOD from attack, Remove 5 STUN from attack
- create reality bubble - effect as per Torg


I would then create a ratio of possibilities to XP. Should be fairly straightforward. Standard award for HERO is 2-3XP, Standard award for Torg is probably 8-10. Call it 4 P-points = 1 xp and you'd be in the right ball park.

Something else you might like to consider is the fact that p-rateds (e.g. PCs) can achieve extraordinary actions even without spending p-points because they get to roll again on a 20, which norms dont. Could interpret that as maybe:
- On 5-, subtract 2 from roll. Roll 3d6 again, subtracting 2 and rolling again everytime you roll under 5.
- As above, but when you roll 5 or 16 (prob my favourite, as it spreads the odds a bit)
- As above, but when you roll double 2s [edit: or any other designated double for that matter!]

You could complicate it further so that, for example, if you took the 5/16 option, you'd subtract 1 if you rolled a 5 and 3 if you rolled a 16, which perhaps better reflects the greater influence of roll-agains in Torg on bad rolls than on good rolls. (actually, they have the greatest effect on mid-range rolls - perhaps rolling double-2s is the way to go?).

Well, I think that will do for now. I'm guessing it's too late for a confession. HERO system is just a childhood love with whom I now enjoy the occasional fling. However, I've been happily married to Torg for 13 years. How ashamed do I now feel?....

Phil

[Delthrien]

First, no apologies for the long post -- that's awsome! I may be able to make use of that in the near future. We're about to start up a small group here (found out both one of my co-workers as well as my next door neighbor are gamers) and we're trying to decide on both a system and a setting we can all enjoy.

Second... well... If ya want, I'll keep your, er, relationship(s) under my hat.

[Doctor Mobius]

I really can't add anything to the excellent post by Phil, but...

Don't forget that Possibility Points can also negate knockdown effects and KO effects.

As for Reality vs. Reality Skill during a Reality Storm, the winner each round would strip a certain number of PP from the loser. I don't have the chart here at work, but I would say (off the top of my head) each point of success in Hero would read straight off the chart from Torg. Once a person losses all of their PP, he would start losing levels in his Reality Skill until he was down to zero and transformed.

[Phil]

I really can't add anything to the excellent post by Phil, but...

...you did, so you are an evil, lying super-genius arch villain of the Nile Empire!

Don't forget that Possibility Points can also negate knockdown effects and KO effects.

But I had. Depends whether the game would have knockback or knockdown (i'd drop knockback personally, Torg is more heroic than superheroic), in which case the list of damage effects that p-points can ignore should read
- 2 BOD, 5 Stun, Knockdown or Stun

In the context of the HERO system that may sound quite powerful. It is. In the context of Torg, spending a possibility can turn fatal trauma into a flesh wound. In fact, given that 4 Wounds in Torg is equivalent to 0 BOD in HERO, it might even be 3 BOD rather than 2. YMMV depending on the number of points you allow PCs to be built on. 125 point PCs can afford a few points to boost their BOD, so use 2 BOD per p-point; 50 point PCs should be given the breaks, so use 3 BOD per p-point.

Phil

[Phil]

If there's sufficient interest, I'd even consider doing a full and thorough article on converting TORG to HERO. Although it'll be ready in 2008 - I've got a long list of projects that are in a permanent state of 'nearly finished'!

[Crimson King]

There *is* interest. I'm the original poster over on RPG.net (Ascending Crane). I was thinking of just putting my collection of Hero books and Torg books (all!) in a room and hoping that 'something' would happen, but alas. Nothing did. However, Phil has in one post taken a crack at a large portion of what needs to be converted. And a darn good crack it is, too.

Rather than just you doing this, Phil - what about the rest of us? Is anyone else interested in putting together a little unofficial project here? Doc Mobius (oh, I KNOW you'd be up for it with a name like that)? Delthrien?

Imagine! Starting templates for the various realms that are *balanced*.

Imagine! No more glass ninja problem.

Imagine! Putting stats to Hachi Mara-Two, Kurst, and the other NPC's we probably all know and love.

Think about it folks, we could divide up the work and have it done in no time (ahem, with what Phil has already done!).

[Doc Democracy]

I was wondering how far you wanted to simulate the gameplay of TORG?

The damage results give Ks and Os (essentially the same as STUN) whereas damage values count towards killing (or BODY)

I was wondering whether all characters should have the same STUN which would be removed due to K and O results and K + O would render any character unconcious.

That does leave the issue of REC...

I'm sure there are other gameplay issues that could be simulated using the toolkit. I'm convinced that TORG could be replicated using HERO but there will have to be some consideration made as to what is converted as it stands and what is converted in spirit.

[Crimson King]

I don't think there's a need to try and simulate the K's and O's. A mechanic like that is there purely for guaging pc/npc mortality; we already have stun and body.

[Doc Democracy]

I don't think there's a need to try and simulate the K's and O's. A mechanic like that is there purely for guaging pc/npc mortality; we already have stun and body.

Part of a game's attraction is the gamerplay. HERO is able to be set to provide any number of gameplay experiences.

If there is no desire to have K and O results then that's fine but I think that it removes some of the cinematic nature of the TORG system. In TORG all characters have pretty much the same propensity to KOs but that is not true of HERO.

There are any number of variables in HERO that could probably be set in TORG Hero. Of course, I am a complete TORG novice, I just love looking at novel ways of presenting the HERO system.