My Millenium City feedback...

[Yamo]

Well, I got it and read it and here's my thoughts:

Pros:

1. City layout, infrastructure, and culture very well-detailed.

2. Neat NPCs. I simply love Mr. X, Shadowboxer, Scarlet Shield, Dr. Silverback, and the others.

3. Lots of neat in-jokes. Probably more than I can detect. I laughed a lot.

Cons:

1. The big emphasis on PSI really threw me. Frankly, I think it was a waste of space here. PSI just doesn't grab me in the least and I could think of many better things to put in place of its rather expansive treatment. A greater thematic variety of villians, perhaps, more plot seeds, more tips on integrating your campaigns PCs into MC, or more information on running Detroit/Millenium City in the Golden or Silver Ages. I really think the PSI stuff would have been better off in its own book or mixed-in with the next villian book. I don't think most GMs are going to get as much use out of them to justify the space they take up. I know I won't.

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially.

Now, don't get the impression that I didn't like MC. I did. After all, the two main things that I did enjoy ("city layout, infrastructure, and culture" and "neat NPCs") are easily the lion's share of the book.

I just wish that the space occupied by reams of PSI stuff was better used, that the Champions were absent, and that there had been less of an effort to portray MC as a shiny, and somewhat dull, utopia.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by Yamo

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

I had the same reaction to this

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Yamo
MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham.

That is probably because Hudson City from Dark Champions is supposed to stand in for Gotham. (And Fells Point stands in for Bludhaven).

Hudson was extensivly covered in 4th Ed Dark Champs products, I suspect we will see alot of it when 5th Edition Dark Champs comes out.

[Yamo]

That is probably because Hudson City from Dark Champions is supposed to stand in for Gotham. (And Fells Point stands in for Bludhaven).

Hudson was extensivly covered in 4th Ed Dark Champs products, I suspect we will see alot of it when 5th Edition Dark Champs comes out.

I guess my point is that MC could have done it all with relatively little tweaking if only the "City of the Future" angle had been reduced or eliminated. I think the utopian aspects limit the setting more than they help it.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Yamo
I guess my point is that MC could have done it all with relatively little tweaking if only the "City of the Future" angle had been reduced or eliminated. I think the utopian aspects limit the setting more than they help it.

A valid point, but I think the utopian angle was a definate choice. It was just how Hero decided to do it. This is their "bright and shiny" superhero city, later on they will release their "urban abyss".

You can't be all things to all people without reducing how effectively you do any of it. In Metropolis there just aren't any Arkham Asylums. The two just clash. Batmanesce "gritty" gaming has a long association with Hudson in Hero Games and I think they would have angered alot of people by trying to change it. I for one run a game where the Kingpin would be really out of place, and am glad I don't have to edit him out of Millenium city.

Anyway, Hudson and the Harbinger are old favorites of Steve's, so I doubt they are going anywhere.

[Blue]

"Millenimu City" could have been nothing less than shiny and new. Otherwise they should have picked a different name.

[Jhamin]

Although, not to beat you up too much,

I also think the PSI charcters should have been in another book. Either in an expanded entry in CKC, or in their own supplament like in 4th Ed.

[Hermit]

Not to knock Yamo's opinion, but I have to say my own definitely diverges. Cool either way .

1. The big emphasis on PSI really threw me. Frankly, I think it was a waste of space here. PSI just doesn't grab me in the least and I could think of many better things to put in place of its rather expansive treatment. A greater thematic variety of villians, perhaps, more plot seeds, more tips on integrating your campaigns PCs into MC, or more information on running Detroit/Millenium City in the Golden or Silver Ages. I really think the PSI stuff would have been better off in its own book or mixed-in with the next villian book. I don't think most GMs are going to get as much use out of them to justify the space they take up. I know I won't.

Well, I didn't see it as that BIG an emphasis on PSI, there were notes on ARGENT, VIPER, and such in there. True, we get some more PSI agents, but we also got five solo villains and some juicy plot seeds. Though, I like PSI... a lot, so maybe I just can't be disapointed in that area.
I do wish there were more on ARGENT, but maybe that's for the best, so we can develop it on our own.

2. I think it's really unfortunate that MC already has a superteam in the Champions. Sure you can excise them from the setting and have your own PCs be the Champions, but they are there by default, and that can cause problems. Iconic characters can loom quite large in the minds of the game's participants, and that can hurt the mood. It's a bit like basing your Forgotton Realms PCs in the same city as Elminster or your Lord of the Rings PCs in Aragorn's back yard. There's a certain "Are we really necessary here?" issue that arises. Why bother with another Dark Avenger of the Night when Nightkawk's crib is just down the street a few blocks?

Shoot, I was thinking that once you counted in the Suburbs and North Detroit that the Champions can't handle it all. They aren't that hard to remove if you must, just subsitute what is said about the Champions for your PC team.

3. MC is a little too pristine and utopian for me. The whole "City of the Future" bit is really bad for certain kinds of campaigns and stories. I would say that MC makes a good stand-in for Metropolis, but a fairly poor Gotham. There's something of a token effort to detail a few gangs on the outskirts of town, but the MC "street level" underworld still just doesn't seem like much of a major power to me. Certain;y not a worthy foe for even a low-powered superhero. Everything is just too bright, shiny, and safe. The tightly-controlled access to the city is a bummer, especially.

Actually, I had my doubts to when I first read about MC in Champions Universe, but once I got the book... I think I started to see what the point was. Like the Author's notes said, this is a setting that shows a city that is NOT 'status quo', where progress is being made, in part due to the sacrifice of super heroes. Yes, the city is upbeat, positive, etc... just like Hudson City will be crumbling, and lost.

However, even the 'Utopia' has problems. Evil is in the hearts of men, not the archetecture, and Millennium City strikes me as eventually driving that point home. Crime will be forced to adapt, but it will be there. I have not decided, but between the chips and the Super Registration, I may start to play up the "Big Brother" scenerio that is the dark side of such an automated paradise. And you can bet technologically savvy super villains will be messing up the plumbing enough to make the averagne Lennie wonder if maybe they're too reliant on it.

[Kaeto]

Then there is the problem of getting around in the city. No using super vehicles here.

And the police can stop a escaping crook in his car dead just by sending a command to the computer that controls all cars in the city.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Kaeto
Then there is the problem of getting around in the city. No using super vehicles here.

And the police can stop a escaping crook in his car dead just by sending a command to the computer that controls all cars in the city.

Well, first off, there are super vehicles... the Champions have one. Land based team vehicles might have a problem, but those seem to be the exception anyways. Even then, fake chips are mentioned so the tech CAN be circumvented by a wiley gadgeeter

[Wormhole]

As far as the "shiny and new" part, that's because it is a new city, built over the ruins of Old Detroit. Of course, cities rarely stay shiny and new...

[Killer Shrike]

Heh heh.

I made pretty much the same comments last week here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...0&pagenumber=3

and got lambasted for it by Monolith.

Glad to see Im not alone in my take on MC.....

[TheEmerged]

I finally gave up on my "FLGS" (which is neither F nor L and just barely G) once and for all. Hopefully my copies arrive from FRP soon so I can comment on this issue

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Heh heh.

I made pretty much the same comments last week here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...0&pagenumber=3

and got lambasted for it by Monolith.

Glad to see Im not alone in my take on MC.....

Well if it makes you feel any better, I do not agree with his points either.

1: PSI is a major villain group in Millennium City. We have known that since CKC was published. Many of us like PSI. It is one of the few villain teams in the new Champions Universe. Giving us the last few members of the team is a good thing IMO. Otherwise it might be several years before another product would have been able to fill-out the team for us. We already know there is no additional "Enemies" book schedules before 2005.

2: As I have already stated in the other thread, it is extremely common to have multiple hero teams in the same city. I have never played in a campaign yet where the players were the only heroes in the city. I prefer having other heroes in my city. I have a feeling most people do. Of course Yamo's reason for disliking the Champions is the opposite of Killer Shrike's. Killer Shrike feels that the NPC heroes should be more iconic and Yamo feels that the Champions are too iconic. I guess you just can't win.

If Marvel's New York could exist with the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, the Defenders, 2-3 X-Men teams, Power Pack, and more independent heroes than you can shake a stick at, Millennium City can survive with the Champions, a few indy heroes, and the players, IMO. It is just part of the genre.

3: Metropolis and Astro City are also a "utopian" cities if you think about it. The only thing which makes Millennium City different is the vehicle chips; and as I stated in the other post, those are easy to get around.

Overall if Millennium City only have a handful of dislikers then I guess that would be considered very successful.

[Hermit]

Well, it seems Millennium City, Vibora Bay, and Hudson City have been well thought out to give folks their pick of what setting they want to run in. Millennium City will have a very Metropolis/Progressive feel, where as Hudson City seems more 'Gotham/Gritty', and Vibora, well.... sounds like a Big Easy/Swamp Thing Voodoo kind of vibe going there. Mystics should feel right at home.