Gurps

[Agemegos]

G'day

Some of the blokes are interested in GURPS. OUght I to explore this avenue enthusiastically? Cautiously? Only under protest? Or die first?

has anyone here any experience playing GURPS? What was good about it? What was bad about it? Why is HERO superior?

Regards,


Brett

[garou]

IME, GURPS does a pretty decent job of simulating "normal" humans. So, as long as everyone is fairly normal (ie, low fantasy, space opera, CoC-style horror, etc), then GURPS does fairly well. When you move into the realm of the very-skilled person (ie, Special Ops) or the superherioc/high fantasy, GURPS does a much poorer job.

If I were going to run a low fantasy game, I might consider GURPS. If I were going to run a superhero game, I'd write my own system first.

System-wise - it's much quicker to pick up than Hero, but not nearly as flexible. GURPS is point-driven, but with only 4 basic stats, you wind up with some very odd issues with skills. Low-tech combat tends to be pretty deadly (one or two good hits will take you out of the fight), and at the high-tech side, combat is lethal.

Are they interested in a particular genre, or just wanting to try something new? What system are they playing now?

[CourtFool]

I would disagree that G.U.R.P.S. is easier to pick up than Hero System. Granted all of my experience with G.U.R.P.S. is 3rd edition.

G.U.R.P.S. - Pros: Granularity, detail, available material. Cons: Arbitrary cost structure, difficulty handling higher power levels

Hero System - Pros: Consistency, modular. Cons: Lack of granularity, less material available (compared to G.U.R.P.S.).
For me, the reason I prefer Hero System over G.U.R.P.S. is the ability to reason from effects. G.U.R.P.S. tries to build new Advantages and Skills for each new effect needed in a particular genre. Hero System gives you the building blocks and lets you define the special effect. This may add time on the front end (creating powers) for that price you get consistency. Everyone understands what an Energy Blast is and you do not have to buy the latest Companion to make sure you have all the available powers.

[Agemegos]

Are they interested in a particular genre, or just wanting to try something new? What system are they playing now?

Major foci of interest are fantasy RP in my Gehennum setting, contemporary or Cold War espionage adventure somewhere between John LeCarré and Ian Fleming in spirit (ie. a lot grittier than the 'James Bond' movies), and SF adventure in my Flat Black setting (which is high-tech compared to The Mote in God's Eye, but lower-tech than Transhuman Space (except for an FTL drive and planet-busting Catalytic Thermonuclear weapons).

At the moment we are playing variously Bushido, a Ghosts of Albion playtest, James Bond 007. I prefer ForeSight for most things, but it has now been out of print for eighteen years, and the two copies I have are not enough to go around.

One of the players has an irrational horror of the Hero System.

[lemming]

I kind of like the skill system a little better in GURPS, but overall I prefer Hero.

I've played in a couple GURPS games and ran a campaign, but to me there really wasn't enough of a difference to keep doing GURPS. I did like GURPS supplements though and continued buying them.

[Toadmaster]

GURPS is a good game, in many ways similar to HERO and in others very different (I know that probably helps alot). Personally I am quite happy playing in either system, but I've noticed that while the two systems are similar you will find players that like both and players that like one and hate the other. I tend towards HERO largely because I know the system better.

GURPS is more specific, skills are narrowly defined (and there are tons of skills), disads are spelled out, gluttany vs psch lim - gluttany etc. Damage is much more spread out, for example a .45 ACP pistol does 2d6+1 and a 7.62mm NATO rifle does 7d6 instead of 1d6+1 and 2d6+1, also damage is done differently, melee weapons modify strength damage instead of strength modifying weapon damage.

I think most agree that GURPS has an edge for lower powered "gritty" games, while HERO handles higher powered and cinematic games better. A GURPS Fantasy game is definately different from a Fantasy HERO, not better, not worse but there is a different feel.

Why don't you grab a copy of GURPS lite, its free and should give you a decent idea of how the game works.

[CourtFool]

There were four things that made me convert to Hero System from G.U.R.P.S.

1. COM: I was never happy with a maximum of Beauty/Handsomeness plus it was much cheaper to be good looking.
2. STUN: I loved the idea that you could knock someone unconscious without doing serious, long term damage just like in the movies.
3. SPD: I thought it much better represented speedsters both in what they could do and costs.
4. Overall Skill Levels: My characters always tend to be jacks of all trades. Overall Skill Levels were like the Holy Grail to me. All Skill Levels seemed more elegant than G.U.R.P.S. where you had to be Einstein and an Olympic level gymnist to really be effective in a broad range of skills. Escalating cost for increased skill seemed realistic, but really was just a pain in the arse in the end.

[Sean Waters]

I've got GURPS, but I wouldn't say it is easier to pick up than Hero: it doesn't have quite the same level of internal consistency, so whilst the ideas are straightforward, there's more of them.

I looked at the Gurps: Supers game and felt it was a bit clunky and did not give well balanced characters.

Still all my experience with GURPS is the old edition so it may have improved.

[garou]

I would disagree that G.U.R.P.S. is easier to pick up than Hero System. Granted all of my experience with G.U.R.P.S. is 3rd edition.

I was thinking primarily in terms of character creation, since that is a make-or-break point for many potential players. (Ever try to make a character for Aftermath without knowing the game? *shudder*) Since all the disads and ads have predefined point values, a new player doesn't have to wade through pysh lim (common, strong) to determine the pv of Code v Killing - it's a 20 pt mental disad (IIRC).

Combat is pretty much equally complex on both sides - I've never played a GURPS game that didn't use hit locations, and I don't think I've ever played a game of Hero where it was used (mainly b/c it's all been Champions, 4-color style).

[nexus]

My experience is with 3rd edition and I've heard some of these issues have been addressed in Fourth. All this is IMHO.

Gurps works well for "normal" level characters, low fantasy, hard sci fi, modern techno thriller, perhaps a little better Hero if you're going for realism. Combat, particularly with modern weapons is lethal, character are limited and realistic at most point totals.

Gurps doesn't work so well (and definiately less so than Hero) for more cinematic games, particularly Supers unless you are going for a Wild Cards feel to your campaign. In general, Gurps works well for a setting where main characters having special powers or superhuman abilities is an exception rather than commonplace.

Gurps isn't as flexible. Its more of a menu game than Hero, where you pick thngs off a list. Mind you, with all the supplements its a VERY long and detailed list. This is simpler for some but it makes getting precisely what you want or making up something new more difficult than with Hero. Also means you almost have to invest a few supplments. The Player's Compendium is so useful its practically a must as are the various tech books (Ultra Tech 1 and 2, High Tech and Biotech).

All in all, I like GURPs, I just prefer Hero for most of my gaming purposes.

[OddHat]

I played GURPS 3rd for many years. Haven't tried 4th.

Plus Side: Some fantastic writers. Some excellent world books and campaign settings. Good licensed properties. Very good at keeping real world physics in mind when describing powers and effects. Great monster books.

Minus Side: Price structure (was) sometimes wildly screwy from setting to setting. Combat had to be heavily tweaked if you wanted Supers level games where Batman and Superman are both able to meaningfully contribute. Poor support for any one setting once it was out the door.

I had some fun games in GURPS, and I still use some of the ideas and monsters I picked up from those books.

[yamamura]

4th edition is a vast improvement over 3rd (except their darn magic system) as long as your book holds together But I have to agree it is a matter of taste. I like HERO because I can modify my Powers and Disadvantages the way I want to and not take some arbitary number slapped down for their cost and there are some really weird numbers in GURPS (for example wanting romance ala Lecherousness is -15 while wanting to start fires whenever you have a chance is only -5). Now to be fair Disadvantages can now be modified by changing their control number for how easy it is or isn't to resist it.

As for their world/resource books, GURPS does a really solid jobs and I will probably like others have said continue to buy them if they interest me.

G

[Just A Guy Name]

4th edition is a vast improvement over 3rd (except their darn magic system)...

I like most of the changes in 4E, but I'd have to agree that they dropped the ball in keeping the same standard magic system as in the earlier editions. My problem with it is not so much the system itself, though it is a bit clunky, as with the balance issues when comparing a mage to other powers. Magic, being generally more cost effective, requires adjudication from the GM in the form of placing a fair Unusual Background cost on Magery, to balance it's value vis-a-vis other advantages. It would have been better to just redesign the system entirely, IMO, though the less work intensive option of simply re-pricing Magery would have been acceptable.

[TheQuestionMan]

Balance is a lot easier to quantify in Hero than in GUPRS I'll admit that.

Cheers

QM

[TheEmerged]

I just have one thing to add, at least as it involves 3rd Edition GURPS -- the psionics system is better than HERO's until you start getting into the higher power levels. I understand 4th Ed adopts my long-running house rule about replacing the large number of psionic skills with a few skills and "manuevers" modifying them for certain effects...