Does 5ER's completeness kill other sales for HERO???

[zornwil]

In another thread, MitchellS mentioned Steve's wordiness, and here was my response:

I do somewhat agree. However, even removing "wordiness", 5ER is quite large, and a lot of isn't so much the wordiness as the level of nuance. And it's a level of nuance I believe should often be shuttled to compendiums, DH, and other books.

In fact, here's an interesting thought - is 5ER "too" complete? Does it actually discourage sales of other products? Hmmm, I'm going to post that in the Company thread, as that's a tangent to this thread. Anyone interested in this topic please go there!

So as to that last paragraph, what do you think? Would a less complete HERO core book allow better sales of other products? Have we gone too far? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot? Or am I just daft?

[Lord Mhoram]

To be honest, one of the things that most of us in my area like is the fact that the rules are compiled in one volume. That is one of the reasons that many of us stopped playing D&D - too many dang books; and we were all completists and tinkerers. Doing the same in HERO would just be icky.

HERO can be a very complex system to run, I like the fact you have the reference book with everything, and then support books for examples and extensions.

[JohnTaber]

Great question Zorn!

I think the completeness of the Hero book won't be an issue as long as the genre books and support material are really great. If these books are great folks will buy them too. In my mind it is not an issue of where the rules "sit" or how complete they are as long as they don't hinder the add on material. This is hard to explain...hopefully you get my point...

[Blue]

I gave this some thought previously. It seems that game companies live and die by the sale of their Core books. That's why we have 3.5 D&D, that's why WW rewrote the entire WoD line (despite what they write about it being about putting an ending to the old chronicle; That's just PR).

Let's say they had instead of 5E (or 5ER), the hardbound "Hero System" and "Hero Campaigning" books. Instead of charging $50 for the one, they charge $30 each. While I have no sales figures to back it up, "DMG" style books sell less than "Player's Handbooks" because you have fewer DM's out there than players. Many in my group borrower a DMG when they need one. So you go from, say 4 Players with a 5ER (Netting $200) to 4 Guys with Hero System and we'll say 2 with the Campaign book (Netting $180).

The thing that actually surprises me about the way DoJ does things is that they can manage to come up with so much supplemental material. I think people who buy just the core book don't realize just how much else there is of use out there in those supplements.

And that was just me fooling around with figures one day.

[zornwil]

I do wonder, Blue, if (especially among younger or economically disadvantaged gamers) if it's really a matter of 4 players with 5ER today as opposed to 4 with HERO and 2 with a Campaign book tomorrow. I wonder if it's more like 3 players with 5ER today and in a hypothetical world with your scenario or a higher-priced and slightly more info-filled Sidekick-ish 6th Edition with a "GM's Complete Guide" (assuming similar costs as you indicated) with 4 players with the Hero System book and 2 with the Campaigning book. Believe me, I have no clue, and I tend to think that any board surveying on this is ineffective as all of us here are the more hardcore supporters, not casual players (generally).

[Blue]

Very true.
I don't know if sidekick has any stigma attached to it (A sort of "But it doesn't cover everything!" complaint), as I don't do convetions and such.

I'm torn, personally. I like that sidekick was easy to breeze through. For someone as attentionally impaired as I am to read a game book through is a good thing. Honestly the reason I play Hero now is because I already knew all the rules from years of smaller, earlier editions. If I were a new gamer, the sidekick might be more likely to the type of guy I am.

I might add that if sidekick were the focus and 5ER were the exception that sidekick would probably cost more. As it is, it's intended (I believe) to get people wanting to learn everything, and therefore to buy 5E(R) and the other sourcebooks.

[Fitz]

In our gaming group, I'm the only one with a copy of Fred. There are three others with a copy of Sidekick, but the only reason they have those is because I egged them on to get them and organised the whole exercise, and even then they only bought them because they got them cheap (cut-price damaged books from the Online Store) -- cheap bastards

I'm also the only one who ever buys any of the campaign or source books, and apart from a very occasional scenario run by my wife, the only one who ever GMs Hero. It's kind of depressing that the only way I ever get to play in a Hero game is to run it myself.

I honestly don't know why they're so resistant; they seem to be enjoying themselves, and I've had no real complaints about the system. But whenever any of the others does any GMing, it's always in some other system. The main other campaign (alternating with mine) is in the WHFRP system, for crying out loud -- possibly one of the lamest rpg systems ever devised! (Entertaining campign milieu though).

[lemming]

The main other campaign (alternating with mine) is in the WHFRP system, for crying out loud -- possibly one of the lamest rpg systems ever devised! (Entertaining campign milieu though).

I don't know. I kind of liked elements of the rpg system. Every weapon does the same amount of damage! But I'd probably not have had fun if the campaign was lame as well. (And it's not like one couldn't do the same in Hero for the simplicity)

[RDU Neil]

I'm also the only one who ever buys any of the campaign or source books, and apart from a very occasional scenario run by my wife, the only one who ever GMs Hero. It's kind of depressing that the only way I ever get to play in a Hero game is to run it myself.

I honestly don't know why they're so resistant; they seem to be enjoying themselves, and I've had no real complaints about the system. But whenever any of the others does any GMing, it's always in some other system.

To paraphase a friend of mine. "I love to play Hero... but if I'm going to run a game, it will be in (insert Savage Worlds, Feng Shui, whatever)." He then finishes with, "It's just too much book keeping. It is no fun to run."

[shem_whistler]

I do wonder, Blue, if (especially among younger or economically disadvantaged gamers) if it's really a matter of 4 players with 5ER today as opposed to 4 with HERO and 2 with a Campaign book tomorrow. I wonder if it's more like 3 players with 5ER today and in a hypothetical world with your scenario or a higher-priced and slightly more info-filled Sidekick-ish 6th Edition with a "GM's Complete Guide" (assuming similar costs as you indicated) with 4 players with the Hero System book and 2 with the Campaigning book. Believe me, I have no clue, and I tend to think that any board surveying on this is ineffective as all of us here are the more hardcore supporters, not casual players (generally).

Just a thought on surveying (sorry for the tangent) and I know it has had a fairly large thread in the past.

I was wondering if there would be any mileage in including a flyer/section in the books that either has a customer questionaire or directs people to an online survey?

This would widen the net and potentialy get some non hardcore responses.

Although I appreciate that there would need to be some incentive for people to respond. Perhaps a rebate on an online purchase or a free pdf download, both of these would be at a minimal cost to DOJ, though of course it depends on how valuable the feedback is to them.

Normal service is now resumed.
Shem

[zornwil]

It may be a tangent, but it's a great idea!

(PS - will rep you later, I have to catch up on some other repping)

[DreadDomain]

Quite honestly, to me, Hero's completeness is a definite strength. I like to have all the rules at the same place. I think a great innovation of Hero 5th (compare to previous editions) is the many "already built" books like USPD, Grimoires, , Gadgets, Vehicles, etc... They still use the same basic rules but do a great deal of the job for you. Repeat the last sentence twice.

This is one of my pet peeve with many systems (like d20). The print books about this and that adding classes and feats and spells and whatnot but there is no cohesion between one and another. There is no way you can reverse-engineer from the new stuff to a basic set of well established rules.

With Hero once I've bought the main book I don't need anything else... but since they are getting a lot of good stuff to hel cut the work down while remaining consistent with the rules and giving the tools to understand where all the stuff is coming, I keep buying.

What I would like to see now is a complete game using Hero. A game where the toolkit has been used to build rules that are specific to a setting . In the worls of XYZ there guilds? Well the Guilds work like this (insert setting specific stuff) and rule wise to get higher or better within the Guilds, your character do this (insert rules built with the toolkit) and must improve this way (insert rules built with the toolkit). I am not sure I am making sense here. I think Narosia you well do that.

[zornwil]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's not a strength. It is. I'm just suggesting there may be weaknesses and exploring the topic - and please note in this case I'm looking at it purely from an economic perspective. Just to be clear.

[AlHazred]

From hanging out on RPG.net and the discussions I've had with other gamers in my neck of the woods, I'd say that the "all-in-one" nature of 5ER is a huge strength. Everybody knows what White Wolf does when it repackages parts of the rules as splatbooks, and most of the people I know don't like it. They only buy those they "need" for whatever game they're in, and even then it's mostly the background elements that sell them.

Increasingly, I'm of the opinion that HERO needs to have a "GM Simplicity" thing, where the steps are all laid out 1-2-3, and all the math is done ahead of time, and all the options are packaged in the most elegant, cleanest space possible. It's only when something like this is done for, say, Turakian Age that HERO will see money from those gamers who don't want to tinker. I think MitchellS' Champions Sidekick and Fantasy Hero Sidekick are good steps in that direction. But then the question becomes, "Will the effort pay off? Would enough people buy HERO to make it worthwhile?" I think we need to wait a year or so more for the rest of the shine to wear off of D&D. When WotC starts making noises about "4E" and gamers are complaining in droves about being "forced" to buy the same stuff again, then it might be time to strike...

[MisterBaldy]

I think that this somes up my opinion...

My Response in the "HERO system observations and beefs" thread

I hope this helps to explain my position on the matter.