Knockdown and Knockback

[JmOz]

I am currently in a game where KB is the standard, however a couple of my characters attacks would make sense to do Knock Down instead. If I were to apply a modifier on changing a killing attack to KD instead of KB what value would you the board consider it. My first inclination BTW is call it a -/+ 0 modifier (aka a note)

[Blue]

I tend to agree. It's not worth the 1/4, so unless you're the type who likes to use the small fractions like 1/8 (I know I don't) then +0 is right.

[Silbeg]

Definately agreed. This is a change along the same road as "STUN Only -0" for an Energy Blast. Not really that limiting, as only doing Knockdown can help (the enemy is still at your feet), and sometime hinders (can't get that pest away from you, so that you can recover, or whatever).

So, being a relative wash, I would agree to a -0

[prestidigitator]

For the most part, I would agree, especially since Killing Attacks do less Knockback anyway. If the Knockdown of the attack had no potential for doing damage (can't remember if Knockdown ever does damage at the moment), I'd call it a -1/4 to -1/2; Knockback damage can get pretty significant!

[Dust Raven]

Oh boy! Another bandwagon!

Yep, I'd say it's just a -0. The rules for KB and KD are functionally identical (except for the flying back and taking damage part), and effectively interchangable anyway.

Also, I think I've seen some Does KB for +0 on some Powers intended for KD campaigns, so it seems right.

[RDU Neil]

Me too, me too.

-0 limitation for Knockdown.

[JmOz]

After reading KD again (I hardly use it), I do not think that it is quite right for the f/x and genre: So instead I am basing a -0 lim on it instead, but changing it somewhat:

-0: Maximum KB is 1"

[RDU Neil]

Still won't do any damage... but might just get them off the edge of that cliff or building they are standing on.

Works for me!

[Sean Waters]

Someone needs to disagree....

I'm assuming it is a supers game?

Max 1" KB is an utter killer, worth a substatial (well +1/4 or so) advantage.

Think about it.

I hit you. You go back 1" and fall down.

1/2 phase to get up, then you can only attack me with a move by or move through (you are out of range unless you have growth, stretching or a ranged attack) , and as you are so close, you'll only get up to 5" velocity.

Plus, if you have a higher speed and time it right, you get to attack a prone opponent.

Whilst all of this could happen with with normal KB rules, it is likely that your opponent is going to wind up further away, so you could well be in difficulties getting to the sucker with a half move.

IME KB damage is rarely a major factor, unless you are lucky or plan real well.

I can see other tactical adbantages to having shorter KB distances as well, depending on the build of the character and the team mates.

I'd be interested to see the powers we are talking about, or maybe even the whole character, rather than being asked to comment on a seemingly innocuous advantage/limitation in isolation.

[JmOz]

The powers in question are two from a MP:

5d6 RKA vs PD, 3 Recoverable Charges, OAF, Beam

2d6 RKA vs PD, AF-3, AP, +2 Stun, 12 Recoverable Charges, OAF

If you wish to see the character look up the character review on Marksman, down the page a little bit

[RDU Neil]

Whilst all of this could happen with with normal KB rules, it is likely that your opponent is going to wind up further away, so you could well be in difficulties getting to the sucker with a half move.

I really don't see how it is all that much different... as you say above. A player who is trying to take advantage of knockback to keep his opponent always "just out of reach" while putting on the smack down... they can do it with standard knockback or this version, just as well. Either way, the opponent with breakfall to get up without a 1/2 phase action is actually likely to be a MORE of a disadvantage with long range KB... since their half move might not be enough to reclose the distance... but they'll easily get the shot in at only 1".

It evens out. Even if it doesn't, it hardly enough of a difference to warrant a change in cost (advantage or limitation).

[Silbeg]

I really don't see how it is all that much different... as you say above. A player who is trying to take advantage of knockback to keep his opponent always "just out of reach" while putting on the smack down... they can do it with standard knockback or this version, just as well. Either way, the opponent with breakfall to get up without a 1/2 phase action is actually likely to be a MORE of a disadvantage with long range KB... since their half move might not be enough to reclose the distance... but they'll easily get the shot in at only 1".

It evens out. Even if it doesn't, it hardly enough of a difference to warrant a change in cost (advantage or limitation).

I disagree. The difference is enough for a character to take advantage of.

If you are using normal KB, it is often more likely that you will knock the target back more than 1"...

Knockdown is fair, because both characters remain in HtH range, and the target can stand up and still hit back with an HtH attack.

Knockback is fair, because the variable range effects each character equally. Either character would need to move to affect the other in HtH range, and both are subject to the increased range for ranged attacks.

However, a max 1" is less balanced, as a character can easily overcome the 1" range issue, with a simple ½ move, but the target has to stand up, and cannot return the blow.

If you have ever seen a Martial Artist with a staff w/ 2" reach (Stretching) doing a Takedown manuever on a brick, you will understand how that 1 extra inch of range can be so significant.

[Rapier]

Depends a lot on your play style. If you guys tend to do a lot of knockbacking (KB Villain A into Villain B etc) then I can see it being worth a -1/4, otherwise its just a -0.

[Sean Waters]

Novelty is usually an advantage. The opponent will assume the normal rules apply, and may be surprised, the person with the novel attack or application will build and use tactics to take advantage of it.

Predictability is usually an advantage. Knowing that your KB will be 1" or not at all is something that can be used: you don't have to worry, for instance, about accidentally putting the enemy brick next to your team's lightly armoured energy projector with an unexpectedly high KB result.

Given my belief that KB damage is not normally significant, I would say that predictable KB is more advantageous than limiting, so I'd give it a (small) advantage cost.