What we like about HERO

[00Machado]

I know I'm preaching to the choir in terms of liking HERO, but I thought I'd throw out some thoughts on why I like it.

Maybe this info, and feedback that others contribute to the thread can be useful is how DoJ positions the HERO tool kit in their advertising and discussions of how fans use the rule set, and, if not, just interesting for all of us to read why HERO "clicks" with others.

For me, I don't think it's the tool kit aspect. I'm not so much a tinker. The draw for me is the creative freedom that I don't feel other games offer.

I want my reliance on a single system for multi genre and anything I make up on my own to be an enabler of my creativity, not a hinderance.
Examples:
HERO - if you can imagine it, you can built it, often multiple ways. Sort of like the way I've heard George Lucas describe the evolution of special effects technology enabling him to put what he imagined on screen, instead of having to compromise due to technical limitations of achieving what he envisions. HERO system enables me to wrap rule mechanics around what's in my imagination, rather than...
GURPS - Nice concept in some cases (i.e point based characters, characters with strongly developed sets of skills for when you want that level of complexity), but if it doesn't already exist with a point cost, you have to make it up. Also, I'm sure plenty of people can make it more cinematic, but it's not something I can do, at least not easily enough that I'm willing to spend time on it. Now, with HERO, I can template on realism with things like killing attacks, etc. or template it off. No hassles. If it weren't for the back catalog of books published that already have new ideas priced out in terms of point cost for you, the system might even be stifling for creativity, as is the case with...
d20 - I like the mechanic of the difficulty class increasing, and requiring a roll high instead of a roll low. This is perhaps my major gripe with hero. Simply put, I like roll high for success, not roll low. In plenty of cases, I even like the idea of sudden and discrete gains in power as provided for by feats, hit points, etc. But that's not my point. My point in bringing up d20 is... if there's not a prestige class for it, a spell that already exists, a core class that fits a role, etc. you have to make it up. Now, depending on my mood and at various points in my gaming experience, I have been more or less comfortable just making stuff up for a game. I realize that a lack of a prestige class doesn't prevent me from making up my own, but will mine be any good? Will it be balanced? And besides, I want to make up ideas really, not rules. So, I could make the Sun Lord prestige class and try and express my ideas in d20 rule mechanic terms, or I could use HERO to just apply in-game effects that I'm very familiar with, and that are already built into the system, to my Sun Lord idea. Whereas d20 doesn't stop me from making stuff up, I know I have a mental barrier that often sends me to look for a rule widget (feat, prestige class, equipment, etc) that has already been made up to fill my need. It's just my personality, and I know I'm not the only one with that particular mental hurdle. Whatever, That's not so important. What is important is that d20 doean't facilitate breaking out of that way of thinking. HERO, at least for me, does. I can go digging through a genre book to see how it's been implemented, and then whenever I want to try to do something similar, I'll remember. And I've progressed beyond learning a rule, to learning how to re-apply that rule to any similar situation. In all honesty, I know I could swipe lightsabers from Star Wars d20, insert them into my fantasy genre game as light swords, mental energy blades, etc, but, what if there was no Star Wars d20. Would I make it up? Would I say it does the same damage as a great sword? The Hand Attack effect in HERO, on the other hand, is always there and ready to grab for my lightsaber, and then my mental sword, and then the next idea that comes along. And any of the power modifiers needed to give it just the right feel are there too.
You might say that HERO is a state of mind that lends itself to me not self editing my ideas to the mechanical components that I've come across.

The down side that I see to HERO.
I've played a fair amount of 4E, but haven't yet run a 5 or 5ER game (you might say I've been returning to the fold lately), and even with my experience, HERO just appears complicated in some ways. Combats using the speed chart and segments seem to take longer than combat in d20 rounds. Even if they don't, I have the impression that they take longer. Also, the roll under your target number mechanic is more difficult for me vs the roll high mechanic which just rests in my brain as being easier, whether or not it really is.

end

[Fox1]

A most liked/most disliked thread.

It won't help martketing, if this goes for any length all it will show is that what some people like what others hate. One would need to do a real marketing study if they wanted something rational to act on

But it's still fun

Since I came to the game with the original boxed edition, part of my continued use of HERO is simply because it worked for me then and continues to work for me now. It would take a lot to make me move to another system.


Likes:

The split between body/stun, PD & ED split from resistant defenses and each other. Back in the day, this was big- and it was THE road to playing Superheroes. Other games of the time used the traditional damage approach with results of dead and dying characters at the end of each supposed comic book battle.

Love the wargame like combat system. It handles Superheroes wonderfully and it's more than acceptable for heroic action in modern and sci-fi settings as well.

While I do have to use house rules, none of them are major changes to the system. That is frankly amazing.

The construction system allows one to create a vast array of characters tailored to the exact style of game you're going for.

The 5th edition book containing almost all the rules in one place.




Dislikes: These are minor compared to like, but do exist.

HERO does Fantasy extremely poorly. Just as well, I have another fantasy game system I can use.

Most of the additonal books (Ultimate Brick and Ultimate Martial Artist excepted). The rest have been a waste of money and I've stopped buying them.

Most of the 5th edition changes. Ick.

5th Revised STILL not including Piercing in it's power list.

Vehicles. Sorry, vehicles still suck.

The lack of adventures modules.

[nexus]

Apparently, we like very little.

[Dr. Anomaly]

The lack of adventures modules.

We've been told several times by Darren & Steve that modules don't sell well and aren't a good investment of DOJ's resources.

[Fox1]

We've been told several times by Darren & Steve that modules don't sell well and aren't a good investment of DOJ's resources.

I know. And they may well be right.

Doesn't mean I have to like it does it?

[TheEmerged]

For me, the toolkit aspect is the #1 charm. Unlike the original poster I *am* a Class A1 tinker And tinker I have, quite a bit and repeatedly. And tinker I shall continue to do... Anytime I see something that doesn't work the way I think it should, you can bet I'm gonna work on it.

Thing is, unlike other systems, HERO gives you a backdrop to balance against. To use an unfair d20 example, under d20 I know spells should do about d6 per level... But why are some area effect spells d4 per level and others not? Is the automatic-hit aspect of magic missile really balanced against its half damage?

I'll be the first to tell you there are some places HERO breaks down -- the lower-point levels and in campaigns in which PC's have normal characteristic maxima by default being the key one. There are solutions to this, some of which are more radical (altering the figured attribute formulas -- or eliminating them) than others (changing the NCM cap to 25 instead of 20), and some require a certain mindset to work right (changing the skill base from 9+attribute/5 to 6+attribute/5)...

...but the toolkit aspect allows me to tinker with a better idea of what I'm doing. That framework gives me something to look at when I try to do radical things like creating a magic system with only skills (no powers or frameworks).

[Hyper-Man]

Besides all the freeform adaptable construction advantages that HERO has I really like the simplicity of experience awards and character advancement (if used, some posters have had success with essentially 0 xp supers). The players can go whatever direction they wish (within reason and campaign limits) without having to be a prestige rules accountant. Heck, the rules even suggest ways of allowing complete rewrites of super character powers via the radiation accident.

HM

[David Blue]

Things I like:

a) A minimum number of (good!) resolution mechanics handle everything. It's consistent and thus easy to play and to run in ways that even many otherwise good systems like dungeons and dragons aren’t and can't be. Also, you can play it largely from memory, without tables.

b) It handles superheroes and a lot of modern action really well. Fox1 is right about all that. The difference in "feel" is tremendous, and if you like superheroes (and hex maps) all in Champions' favour.* STUN, what a concept!

c) It's remained pretty much what it is, so that everything I've ever bought is still of some use to me, with no more changes than I routinely make when adjusting villains and other writeups to the heroes and the scenario. I expect Hero will continue to be backwards compatible. That makes Hero products exceptionally good value.

d) I can translate anything into it - often poorly, but I can do it. Whatever I see that inspires me, in any genre or in the news, becomes Hero fodder. And that's just keen.

e) Apart from the art, which can be a turn-off, Hero just puts out good products. The rules are well-written and make sense. The physical product isn't too flimsy. (Fuzion never happened ...) The layout is good. I'm finding it hard to sum it up, but if you look at something like VIPER, this is just so obviously worth my gaming dollar, I'll buy it on the assumption either a use for it will arise or I'll create the opportunity to use it - and it won't fall apart in the meantime.

f) Character sheets can be simple and straightforward to build and understand. Critically, this can be true with bricks. So you can sit a totally new player down, and often what he wants is someone like Ajax (classical Greek) or Orion (DC) or Doc Sampson (Marvel), and with Hero you just go here you are, this is what this means, and this is what this means, and let's play. Beautiful!

g) It scales OK for different-sized playing groups. By comparison, if you get a lot of TORG characters together, just because of all the cards they'll put down, the game is out of harmony. A lot of games have a similar problem. But with Hero you can run one player or as many as will fit in your living room, and yes the combats get tedious, but it works.

h) No "hero points". (Related to the previous point. Also, I find not having to decide when and how many hero points to award makes it easier for me to just let the player characters to take a side turn and do what they want.)

* I learned to roleplay from Superworld, which I still love, but where "hit self, do critical, impale, die" was a very possible way for a superhero to die. When I hooked up with some Champions players, I was amazed and delighted at all the unnecessary and dubious-for-genre rules that they - didn't - have. Cool!! I think Champions has lost some of that highly-desirable rules-lightness, but not too much.

[CSgeekHero]

First, let me say what I've discovered about other systems and to me there are only three of note: d20, Gurps, and (of course) Hero.

d20. This actually is not one unified system, but three seperate system thinly vailed as one. There is D&D 3/3.5 edition or AD&D lite. Second, there is Star Wars d20. Its decent, but rigid to the license. While, that's understandable, it is almost completely unusable with anything else. Then, there is d20 Modern. The problem is there are supplements out there are based on the D&D rulebooks so you'll have to throw out half of a book if you want to use it with Modern. The Modern direct line produced by WotC is, well, crap.
I got an idea...Let's throw all of the d20 rules out

GURPS. Generic Uni..., well, generic is all you need to know. The game mechanic felt thin 15 years ago and it seems like nothing's changed. It doesn't work very well at high powers. It just makes you feel uncomfortable looking at the obvious weakness of the character attributes. That doesn't include the fact that the basic 3rd ed. book has become the basic 4th ed. books in order to give someone the basic amount of skills and talents needed to play a basic game. Let the wind blow it away.

HERO! The best balance when it comes to low powered or high powered adventuring. The system doesn't break down. The core rulebook is "The One to Rule Them All." What I mean is that when I change genres I don't have to throw anything out or modify the rules. Hero does a great job of incorporating everything under one roof and giving a lot , I mean A LOT, of information that has never left me without some idea of how to accomplish something, or create a way to accomplish it. The book includes many sample gadgets and several ways to build ones that aren't there without having to buy other books(although, I do because they're good stuff). All you need is your imagination, because just about any rule you need is there in the book. And if not, the system actually gives guidelines for building special rules.

[Dr. Anomaly]

I know. And they may well be right.

Doesn't mean I have to like it does it?

Never said you had to like it; just commenting on why it's not being done, is all.

[archermoo]

I honestly can't think of anything about HERO that I don't like. Which isn't to say that I don't use hose rules. I do. Frequently. Some are to keep things from earlier versions of the rules that I like (I still use the -1 for a 1/2 move rule), and some are just because I like to tinker. But that is part of what the HERO system is all about. When you get down to it, the different genre books are just the official "house rules".

Personally I disagree with Fox1 on how well HERO does Fantasy. But then again, I think it does ALL genre very well. I've played a LOT of different Fantasy RPGs, but the only one that comes close to HERO (IMNSHO) is Rolemaster. But I'd still rather play HERO, especially with the 5th edition rules.

[Dragonblade]

d20 - I like the mechanic of the difficulty class increasing, and requiring a roll high instead of a roll low. This is perhaps my major gripe with hero. Simply put, I like roll high for success, not roll low. In plenty of cases, I even like the idea of sudden and discrete gains in power as provided for by feats, hit points, etc. But that's not my point. My point in bringing up d20 is... if there's not a prestige class for it, a spell that already exists, a core class that fits a role, etc. you have to make it up.

Now, depending on my mood and at various points in my gaming experience, I have been more or less comfortable just making stuff up for a game. I realize that a lack of a prestige class doesn't prevent me from making up my own, but will mine be any good? Will it be balanced? And besides, I want to make up ideas really, not rules.

So, I could make the Sun Lord prestige class and try and express my ideas in d20 rule mechanic terms, or I could use HERO to just apply in-game effects that I'm very familiar with, and that are already built into the system, to my Sun Lord idea. Whereas d20 doesn't stop me from making stuff up, I know I have a mental barrier that often sends me to look for a rule widget (feat, prestige class, equipment, etc) that has already been made up to fill my need.

It's just my personality, and I know I'm not the only one with that particular mental hurdle. Whatever, That's not so important. What is important is that d20 doean't facilitate breaking out of that way of thinking. HERO, at least for me, does. I can go digging through a genre book to see how it's been implemented, and then whenever I want to try to do something similar, I'll remember. And I've progressed beyond learning a rule, to learning how to re-apply that rule to any similar situation.

In all honesty, I know I could swipe lightsabers from Star Wars d20, insert them into my fantasy genre game as light swords, mental energy blades, etc, but, what if there was no Star Wars d20. Would I make it up? Would I say it does the same damage as a great sword? The Hand Attack effect in HERO, on the other hand, is always there and ready to grab for my lightsaber, and then my mental sword, and then the next idea that comes along. And any of the power modifiers needed to give it just the right feel are there too.
You might say that HERO is a state of mind that lends itself to me not self editing my ideas to the mechanical components that I've come across.

Excellent observations of d20. I do enjoy the d20 system and play it more than HERO simply because thats what all my friends play. However, you have hit the nail on the head with exactly why I prefer HERO to d20.

[archermoo]

Oh, and I guess I'm just a freak, since one of the things I have always liked about HERO is that sometimes it is good to roll high, and sometimes it is good to roll low. I've just never understood why some people seem to have so much problem with it/dislike it so much.

I'll also point out that craps is about the oldest dice game extant, and you automatically lose if you roll the highest possible result on the first roll...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Which isn't to say that I don't use hose rules. I do.

Which page are those on? I can't find them. Or are they one of the things that got added for 5ER?










( )

[archermoo]

Which page are those on? I can't find them. Or are they one of the things that got added for 5ER?

Ba-dum-BUMP!

You a very bad man!!!