Opinions Sought: Limitations that great additional function

[nexus]

There are a couple of canonical Powers that brought with "Limitations" that actually grant them additional ability that the power uses to be build them doesn't normally have.

One example is: Corherent Form pg 230 of the Until Superpowers Database.

I was wondering what different opinions are on this sort of thing? Personally, I'm sitting on the fence.

[Supreme Serpent]

Don't have USPD, so not sure about the example.

You mean like a Universal focus being able to function like the Advantage Usable by Others? Gun Guy hands his blaster to Mind Lass to help destroy the robots, while Superguy, with no limits, couldn't hand off his eye beams?

Never really been a big problem for us, as far as I can remember.

[nexus]

Exactly, that would be the other canonical example I could think of. Coherent Form is a Force Field with the Limitation "Only defends against Teleportation Damage (delivered when you accidentally teleport into something solid)" -2

[Dust Raven]

I see what you mean. Foci that can be used by others, Charges that don't cost END and so on. I'm perfectly okay with them for the most part. What I'd disagree with is a Limitation that allows a Power to do something that nothing can do:

Personally, I would never by the Coherent Form like that. To me, that's just buying Safe Blind Teleport for the character's Teleport ability. You can only take damage from a Teleport you use, so the character would have to have it.

[prestidigitator]

Exactly, that would be the other canonical example I could think of. Coherent Form is a Force Field with the Limitation "Only defends against Teleportation Damage (delivered when you accidentally teleport into something solid)" -2

Eh. I'd be fine with the Force Field. You still spent points for it, and you don't get to use it anywhere else (like against some guys fist). I don't see that the Limitation has provided you any additional functionality. BTW, I'd say you still have to spend End on the Force Field and consciously activate it every time you use your Teleport as well unless you modify it appropriately, like with Reduced End and Trigger/Persistent. But then, I'd modify a lot of examples from source material before I'd allow them or use them anyway (not that I don't appreciate the source material! I think it's a great starting point). That's me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.

[prestidigitator]

Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.

Oh yeah. I pretty much blocked those out of my consciousness, as I don't like to think about them. Usually, as soon as I start thinking about that sort of thing, I tend to conveniently find something to distra...nice shoes, by the way.

:sigh: But seriously, if it is going to have significant effect on the game, I would make such aspects of a Power actually be bought as Advantages. For example, your aura should be bought with 0 End and Invisible Power Effects. Otherwise, you're never going to be able to keep it on long enough for it to be useful as a "detect," and no "Evil" creatures are ever going to walk into the Area of Effect as it is pretty obvious what it does. I might also be very careful about a definition such as "Evil." Does his own aura start to smack him down if this paladin neglects to put change in the cup of a beggar he walks by? It's all in how you play it, and interpret it as a GM.

[RDU Neil]

Nexus... I assume by "great additional" you meant to type "GRANT additional functionality" Right?

Howzabout the classic "holy aura" type power... Ya know... say a 2d6 RKA, no range AOE radius continuous, Only vs "Evil" creatures (-1/2 to -1, depending on definition)...
A pretty classic paladin/angel/holy avenger type power... with a fairly stock limitation that gives the player a point break for a limitation that effectively combines the useful parts of selective, personal immunity and a detect.

Great example... and yes, this does bug me. Prior to the "class of minds" concept... the whole "Only vs. Machine Minds" as a limitation on Mind Control actually granted Mind Control the ability to affect machines, when a none limited Mind Control could not do this.

In a system as dense and complex as Hero, these things are bound to come out. What seems to be an intuitive concept in one situation, breaks down when you start to examine it in an analytical/abstract light.

Desol is perfect example of a standard power that breaks the ultimate Hero axiom of "no absolutes" because it makes you absolutely untouchable. The only mitigating factor is to take SFX and consider them part of the defined power effects (i.e. desol affected by sonics) which breaks another Hero axiom... SFX don't affect functionality.

This kind of thing... and the historical tradition of Limitations that actually grant advantages... it is one of those areas I'd love to see cleaned up from a consistency/theoretical POV... but probably don't come into play enough (in my experience) to really get hung up on them. YMMV.

[prestidigitator]

Oh, also on the Holy Aura thing, I would probably force it to be bought with a Linked Detect if it was actually gong to be used that way a lot of the time. Otherwise, there would be in-game balances. For example, if a demon were disguised, it could probably hide the effects of the aura on it anyway. Remember that any Continuous effect has to have some way to "turn it off." I might just decide there is some way to foil it without turning it off. For example, perhaps as long as the demon knows not to look at you directly while you aren't directly confronting him....

[nexus]

Nexus... I assume by "great additional" you meant to type "GRANT additional functionality" Right?

Yes, of course.

Edit: Sorry if that confused you. I type too fast sometimes.

[RDU Neil]

Good thread Nexus... as this also brings up the flame-o-riffic topic of...

... wait for it...

... Damage Shield! (RUN!)

The fact that the OLD Damage Shield effectively gave "Continuous" as a freebie... so when 5th came out, it tried to address this issue... much to the AAAARRRGGGHHH!!! factor of many of us long term Hero freaks.

What this whole discussion generates is a flip side of the "Are limitations too much of a cost break" discussion.

Essentially, "Are some advantages not worth really raising the cost?"

Or... still another example... try the Hand Attack limitation.

Here is a limitation that actually grants an AMAZING functionality... that is adding damage to STR as a combined single attack.

Essentially, the ability to stack damage into one attack should really be a large Advantage (IMO) but often it has been, at worst, a +0 cost... or in the case of Hand Attack... a benefit gained WITH A PRICE BREAK!

So... YEAH! The more I think of it... the more this does bug me... not just from an inconsistency point of view, but from out and out game balance.

[nexus]

This kind of thing... and the historical tradition of Limitations that actuall grant advantages... it is one of those areas I'd love to see cleaned up from a consistency/theoretical POV... but probably don't come into play enough (in my experience) to really get hung up on them. YMMV.

Just to return a good deed. Its "actually". And yes, I mean that. I hate it when I make typos. It distracts from the message of the post. I sincerely thank you for pointing out my error.

[prestidigitator]

Desol is perfect example of a standard power that breaks the ultimate Hero axiom of "no absolutes" because it makes you absolutely untouchable. The only mitigating factor is to take SFX and consider them part of the define power effects (i.e. desol affected by sonics) which breaks another Hero axiom... SFX don't affect functionality.

I've never thought of it as SFX not affecting functionality. The whole system is riddled with things like this. For example, Personal Immunity doesn't usually grant you immunity to other characters' powers, but the GM might rule that if SFX were sufficiently similar...Powers bought with Continuous must have some reasonably common thing that will turn them off...Transform has to have some reasonably common way to "heal" it.... I think this is a great aspect of Hero. It makes SFX one of the central foci of the game. I would choose to say that the mechanics of a Power are not built around any one particular Special Effect. Meaning we don't have Fire Manipulation (that could do damage, or start a campfire, or melt someone's armor). We have Energy Blast, and Change Envrionment, and Drain (all of which must have some Special Effects, but which could have any Special Effects). As for Special Effects affecting mechanics, I think this free game, and the GM should use as much creativity as possible to do just that.

[nexus]

I've never thought of it as SFX not affecting functionality. The whole system is riddled with things like this. For example, Personal Immunity doesn't usually grant you immunity to other characters' powers, but the GM might rule that if SFX were sufficiently similar...Powers bought with Continuous must have some reasonably common thing that will turn them off...Transform has to have some reasonably common way to "heal" it.... I think this is a great aspect of Hero. It makes SFX one of the central foci of the game. I would choose to say that the mechanics of a Power are not built around any one particular Special Effect. Meaning we don't have Fire Manipulation (that could do damage, or start a campfire, or melt someone's armor). We have Energy Blast, and Change Envrionment, and Drain (all of which must have some Special Effects, but which could have any Special Effects). As for Special Effects affecting mechanics, I think this free game, and the GM should use as much creativity as possible to do just that.

I've generally interpreted that sfx issue to mean SFX shouldn't have a major constant impact on functionality. Just because your RKA is a blast of fire, it shouldn't always set the target on fire unless its brought as Uncontrolled Continous. But if your fighting Mr Paper or Sweats Gasoline Man. Well, things might be different. Using SFX helps keep the game from being too dry without adding additional complexity or requiring that every single effect have a seperate power write up, most of which would be the same except for one or two lines (and inevitably one type of effect would be innately better than another one). If you want your sfx to have a major advantage all the time, you have to pay for it. If it has a major drawback allot of the time, you get a limitation for it. At least that's my take on it.

[prestidigitator]

Here is a limitation that actually grants an AMAZING functionality... that is adding damage to STR as a combined single attack.

Essentially, the ability to stack damage into one attack should really be a large Advantage (IMO) but often it has been, at worst, a +0 cost... or in the case of Hand Attack... a benefit gained WITH A PRICE BREAK!

So... YEAH! The more I think of it... the more this does bug me... not just from an inconsistency point of view, but from out and out game balance.

WHAT?!?!?!? No, no, no. Mechanically, Hand Attack is Strength bought with a Limitation. If the Limitation didn't exist, you could use that extra Strength to pick things up, jump farther, etc. It is limiting. Very so.

I guess you could say, "But why does the second 5 Strength add to the first 5 Strength, or the second d6 of an Energy Attack add to the first d6? Your Energy Blast doesn't add to your Ranged Killing Attack!" It's the way the system works. If we change that, we'll have to do a very fundamental change to the whole system, from ground up!