Stuff I didn't know (the world's longest post)

[Sean Waters]

Actually it ain't that long at all: I was reading through pages 383 and 425 of 5er (as you do) and I noticed that you are supposed to be spending 1 END to fire a weapon, which I hadn't known. Moreover you are supposed to (if I'm reading it right) spend 1 END in addition to any END for strength to do any non-martial manoeuvre, including, presumably the basic strike. I hadn't known that either (although I was aware you're supposed to spend 1 END to, for instance, dodge.) Mind you, martial manoeuvres don't cost END to use (other than, presumably for STR). Not sure why, but they don't.

This could have interesting connotations for automatons who've done as suggested and sold back END to 0 and bought everything at 0 END. Those killer robots can't actually fire the guns or hit you: they don't have the END for it.

Anyway, I didn't know this stuff and so I thought I'd post it up in case you'd like to know it, but didn't.

There's probably stuff that you didn't know that I'd like to know about, but don't: if so post it here.

[rjcurrie]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.

[prestidigitator]

Actually it ain't that long at all: I was reading through pages 383 and 425 of 5er (as you do) and I noticed that you are supposed to be spending 1 END to fire a weapon, which I hadn't known. Moreover you are supposed to (if I'm reading it right) spend 1 END in addition to any END for strength to do any non-martial manoeuvre, including, presumably the basic strike. I hadn't known that either (although I was aware you're supposed to spend 1 END to, for instance, dodge.) Mind you, martial manoeuvres don't cost END to use (other than, presumably for STR). Not sure why, but they don't.

Holy crud monkey! Are you sure? Guns should have bought 0 End, but have the Str Min Limitation, so you should have to pay End for the Str necessary to meet the Str Min. I believe the martial maneuver clause is there because some of them add DCs or effective Str for doing a Grab or whatever. Ordinary maneuvers costing End? Dodge? I think not, unless they use Str, movement, attacks that use End.... If this crap has really been added to the system, I'm afraid I will be completely ignoring it, with a little mortified grumbling thrown in for good measure.

[Sean Waters]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.

You are right, but page 383 says you pay 1 END for manouvres in addition to END for strength or power components. Reading them together...wwell, like I said I may not have been reading it right. It's so late over here it's early.

[Sean Waters]

Holy crud monkey! Are you sure? Guns should have bought 0 End, but have the Str Min Limitation, so you should have to pay End for the Str necessary to meet the Str Min. I believe the martial maneuver clause is there because some of them add DCs or effective Str for doing a Grab or whatever. Ordinary maneuvers costing End? Dodge? I think not, unless they use Str, movement, attacks that use End.... If this crap has really been added to the system, I'm afraid I will be completely ignoring it, with a little mortified grumbling thrown in for good measure.

Both firing weapons (and it makes no distinction between heroic and superheroic games) and dodging are specifically mentioned as costing +1 END. Grumble away: it's not good to bottle these thing up.

[Hyper-Man]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.

correct.

You are right, but page 383 says you pay 1 END for manouvres in addition to END for strength or power components. Reading them together...wwell, like I said I may not have been reading it right. It's so late over here it's early.

Page 383 states "Using a Combat Manuever typically costs 1 END (see page 425)," and as such makes no "new" ruling not already covered on page 425. Get some sleep grasshopper.


HM

[Silbeg]

Both firing weapons (and it makes no distinction between heroic and superheroic games) and dodging are specifically mentioned as costing +1 END. Grumble away: it's not good to bottle these thing up.

I would say that for firing weapons, the intent is probably more for equipment than powers. In fact, I would definately rule that for powers the powers rules take over, rather than the weapons rules (since weapons are, by definition, equipment, not powers... right?)

So, if the Superheroic level character - Joe Avenger fires his two Ingram MAC-10s at the enemy, since these are bought (likely) as RKA AF Charges (clips, whatever) in Champions he would not be paying END for the powers.

[RDU Neil]

Actually, page 425 seems to say that you only pay 1 END for maneuvers that don't have a STR component. So you would not need to pay extra for things like Basic Strike which have a STR component.

This has always been my interrpetation. The "1 END minimum" is for non-STR maneuvers.

[RDU Neil]

I would say that for firing weapons, the intent is probably more for equipment than powers. In fact, I would definately rule that for powers the powers rules take over, rather than the weapons rules (since weapons are, by definition, equipment, not powers... right?)

So, if the Superheroic level character - Joe Avenger fires his two Ingram MAC-10s at the enemy, since these are bought (likely) as RKA AF Charges (clips, whatever) in Champions he would not be paying END for the powers.

I would agree with this... plus it adds another level of differentiation in a game that does NOT require all equipment to be paid for with points.

If you are using guns paid for with points, you don't spend END because of charges... but if you are using "equipment" guns, you will.

Question... in a game that allows Rapid Fire (I think that is the correct name) where you can fire more than once, but at an cumulative -2 per each shot after... do you have to pay END for each pull of the trigger, or is this considered a single "maneuver?"

I'd vote single maneuver, but what do y'all think?

[Silbeg]

Question... in a game that allows Rapid Fire (I think that is the correct name) where you can fire more than once, but at an cumulative -2 per each shot after... do you have to pay END for each pull of the trigger, or is this considered a single "maneuver?"

I'd vote single maneuver, but what do y'all think?

Since Rapid Fire is really just a ranged Sweep, I would tend to use the Sweep rules for this. Now, not having 5ER, I don't know if they have made the "optional" rule for paying END for the STR used in each "attack" of the Sweep a core rule, but it is one that we use in my game(s).

So, based on the above, I would require the expenditure of END for each and every shot.

Now, another thing to look at, when using equipment, is the STR mins. If a weapon requires STR 13 to use, and you are using the Heroic rules for END used = STR/5, each shot would use 3 END... which supercedes the 1 END.

Just something to think about...

[austenandrews]

The groups I've played with have never tracked END for base Running, STR Min, etc. Too much paperwork.

[RDU Neil]

The groups I've played with have never tracked END for base Running, STR Min, etc. Too much paperwork.

I've always done it in aggregate. "Assume you spend minimum 1 END per action" and subtract five extra END every five actions or so. Basically, we evaluate END expenditure briefly every four or five combat rounds (I don't use the SPD chart, so roughly the equivalent of once per turn) and knock a few extra points off. Not extremely accurate, but quick and easy.

YMMV.

[Blue]

I definitely play it so that if you've bought your superpowered item or power to 0 END then it only costs STR when applicable. After all, as a GM it makes my life a lot easier in the bookkeeping department if I don't have to record END when I don't have to. Many of my villains have charges or 0 END to save me the trouble.

[austenandrews]

I definitely play it so that if you've bought your superpowered item or power to 0 END then it only costs STR when applicable. After all, as a GM it makes my life a lot easier in the bookkeeping department if I don't have to record END when I don't have to. Many of my villains have charges or 0 END to save me the trouble.

You bother to track END on NPCs?



Um, I mean, you're right, it certainly can be a lot of work, but it's worth it for my players.

[nexus]

First off, THANK YOU SEAN WATERS! I brought this up awhile ago to another Hero player and he went up one side of me and down the other about how that was never a rule. Now, thanks to your diligent efforts I can rub his pasty face in it!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...I mean, I can calmly refute his earlier statements and present a counterargument backed by rules.

Secondly, its kind of funny/cool that in Hero you can be so tired and battered (Out of End and low Stun) that firing a gun can knock your out for awhile. Kind of like a "Death Spiral" effect without being quite so annoying, IMO.