A grenade thought...

[AmadanNaBriona]

A couple of thoughts crossed my mind while I was pondering grenade write ups...
I've always liked the idea of doing a Fragmentation grenade as a:
1/2d6 RKA, AOE radius, non selective, autofire(5)
as the basic construct
Now on to the questions...
#1) autofire is normally doubled for AOE attacks, by the rule that it uses a special attack roll. Would this still apply to Selective and Non selective attacks?

#2) Grenades are classicly bought as Charges, for obvious reasons. Autofire attacks consume 1 charge per shot. Can anyone think of a less clumsy way to sim this than Clips (so each grenade takes an action to prepare) of 5 shots each?

#3) I don't recall ever seeing anything in the system that accounts for an autofire AoE or explosion that is simulating one blast that can hit the targets within multiple times, rather than being spread to multiple targets (like an autofire grenade launcher). I'm thinking this is a +0 limit. Thoughts?

[Gary]

A couple of thoughts crossed my mind while I was pondering grenade write ups...
I've always liked the idea of doing a Fragmentation grenade as a:
1/2d6 RKA, AOE radius, non selective, autofire(5)
as the basic construct
Now on to the questions...
#1) autofire is normally doubled for AOE attacks, by the rule that it uses a special attack roll. Would this still apply to Selective and Non selective attacks?

#2) Grenades are classicly bought as Charges, for obvious reasons. Autofire attacks consume 1 charge per shot. Can anyone think of a less clumsy way to sim this than Clips (so each grenade takes an action to prepare) of 5 shots each?

#3) I don't recall ever seeing anything in the system that accounts for an autofire AoE or explosion that is simulating one blast that can hit the targets within multiple times, rather than being spread to multiple targets (like an autofire grenade launcher). I'm thinking this is a +0 limit. Thoughts?

1) It's actually +1 additional instead of doubling. So Autofire 5 would be a +1.5 advantage for a nonstandard attack. However, the text states that this surcharge affect attacks that attack nonstandard defenses or doesn't use a normal attack roll, and since selective and nonselective do use normal attack rolls, I wouldn't charge the additional +1. Of course, it doesn't make sense to me that a grenade would be Non-selective. Why would you need to make an attack roll vs every target in the radius using your OCV vs their DCV?

2) If you don't want to spend a full action to switch grenades, then purchase Fast Draw with grenades. This can even be built as part of the focus with GM permission. A clip of 5 charges would make the most sense if that's how you wish to model a grenade. Other options are End Reserve or 0 End for the power.

3) I would agree.

[AmadanNaBriona]

1) It's actually +1 additional instead of doubling. So Autofire 5 would be a +1.5 advantage for a nonstandard attack. However, the text states that this surcharge affect attacks that attack nonstandard defenses or doesn't use a normal attack roll, and since selective and nonselective do use normal attack rolls, I wouldn't charge the additional +1. Of course, it doesn't make sense to me that a grenade would be Non-selective. Why would you need to make an attack roll vs every target in the radius using your OCV vs their DCV?

The reasoning here is that there have been plenty of examples of folks in frag explosions and not taking any actual fragment damage, while others get riddled and wind up perforated. I've also used a similar construct for a minigun similar to Reason from Snowcrash, using a 10 shot autofire, AOE line.

[Gary]

The reasoning here is that there have been plenty of examples of folks in frag explosions and not taking any actual fragment damage, while others get riddled and wind up perforated. I've also used a similar construct for a minigun similar to Reason from Snowcrash, using a 10 shot autofire, AOE line.

It would seem to me that it would be kinda random whether someone in a grenade blast takes damage or not and that the ones who don't take damage while inside the blast area, did so by sheer luck or by a maneuver such as dive for cover. I mean a skilled thrower could probably toss a grenade more accurately against a single target, but against multiple targets within a blast area, he's no better than any other thrower. With that in mind, perhaps an Activation roll? With the caveat that you roll the Activation roll vs each target separately instead of once for the entire power.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Hey...we may have actually found a use for the "requires a OCV roll" RSR variant from the revised Edition. Can't say it'd work quite right (I don't have a copy... I only got Fred a year ago, and am not up to another $50 upgrade). But it sounds like it may.
Sigh... back when I first dreamt these up, I handled them with a fixed OCV to represent the quantity of fragents. Could still be done, I supose... remove the Non selective, add a RSR OCV or a limt requiring 2 attack rolls (to place the greande, then to see the effect) and add OCV levels for the second roll... hmmm...

[Sean Waters]

From the Basement Bargain Alternative Design School:

Rather than autofire, you could build a bigger base blast and reduced penetration with RSR or an activation roll, and I'd let you take the RSR/activation on each part of the reduced penetration attack: mathematically the damage averages the same so long as you do it the same way each time.

To my mind this is more realistic anyway: the damage is far more likely to stun (a 1/2d6 KA can max at 15 STUN), which seems realistic for grenades, and it gets round the problems of rapidly escalating costs.

Also bear in mind that you don't have to define the damage as a single wound: you could say that each point of BODY caused by the attack is considered a seperate shrapnel injury, so you have a mechanic for being hit by several bits of metal right there.

[Dust Raven]

#1) autofire is normally doubled for AOE attacks, by the rule that it uses a special attack roll. Would this still apply to Selective and Non selective attacks?

I would say that the Autofire need not have the additional +1 because you are making a normal attack roll, just potentially lots of normal attack rolls.

#2) Grenades are classicly bought as Charges, for obvious reasons. Autofire attacks consume 1 charge per shot. Can anyone think of a less clumsy way to sim this than Clips (so each grenade takes an action to prepare) of 5 shots each?

I would just buy lots of Charges and apply a -1/4 or -0 Lim "Must Fire In Groups Of 5 Charges".

#3) I don't recall ever seeing anything in the system that accounts for an autofire AoE or explosion that is simulating one blast that can hit the targets within multiple times, rather than being spread to multiple targets (like an autofire grenade launcher). I'm thinking this is a +0 limit. Thoughts?

I'm not sure what you mean. When an Autofire AE attack goes off, all the "shots" go to the same hex, and the ones that "miss" don't have any effect at all.

However, let me offer an alternate method for creating a frag grenade that still has a similar result (in terms of SFX).

Instead of Autofire, increase the DC of the RKA by 1 or 2. Keep Non-Selective on the AE. The non-selective roll easily simulates the fact that some will take no damage whatsoever. Because it's non-selective, you can roll the damage versus each target seperately (an unofficial +0 modifier) and that will allow each target in the area to take a different amount of damage.

I don't like Non-Selective for grenades though, because a low OCV attacker than lands his identical grenade in the same hex as a high-OCV character will hit fewer targets, which doesn't make sense. If you like the idea of the targets being able to avoid damage due to DCV/DEX, however, you could remove the Non-Selective and replace it with a Limitation "Targets May Avoid All Damage With A DEX Roll Made At -1/10 AP Of The Attack".

[SCUBA Hero]

The old Danger International had interesting rules for grenades that I once tried to port over to Fifth Edition. If I have time, I'll grab DI tonight and see if I can recover my train of thought...

[Fox1]

A couple of thoughts crossed my mind while I was pondering grenade write ups...
I've always liked the idea of doing a Fragmentation grenade as a:
1/2d6 RKA, AOE radius, non selective, autofire(5)
as the basic construct

The chance of doing damage is based upon the OCV of the attacker and DCV of the defender. It also is constant for the entire radius of the AoE as I recall.

Both factors is not how grenades actually work.

Previous attempts in the older HERO system attempted to deal with this by means of a custom advantage.

Pulling it out from memory...

The Grenade would launch it's attacks at a DCV of zero for targets in range (being prone did give it's DCV bonus against this as I recall). The base OCV was 0 and it took a major range modifier per hex (this was back in the day of -1/3"). The base OCV and Range Modifier could be bought up to represent more dangerous designs.

The system worked, however resolving an grenade attack took an excessive amount of time if there were a number of targets in the area- something that cause even me to blink.

It will be some time before I can reach my books post full details. By then someone will beat me to it.


Edit:

Looks like no one beat me to it.

The build was done like this:

Buy Kill Attack at normal cost. Buy up the OCV (starts at 0) for 3 points per point. Buy up the Range Modifier (starts at -3/1") for 3 points per point (you can apply the point to either the left or right of the slash, but not both).

Add that up, and apply a +1 Advantage.

This total was added to the blast damage for the grenade, typically a low power Normal Explosion.


Given the changes in range modifiers in 4th edition, the above will need some custom work. Some thing just did work better with the old range mods.


Source for this was The Golden Age of Champions done by Firebird Limited for Hero Games. I don't think the rules ever appeared outside their addon books. They also show up in The Armory and Here there be Tigers. Three fine books from the old days.

[AmadanNaBriona]

I knew I got these from somewhere... I've still got all my old Firebird stuff around somewhere. the original Golden Age of Champions had a lot of ideas I used for my first Star Hero campaign (besides the grendage rules, I remember using AP capped extensively for AP-HE small arms.
Thanks for the fond memories :P

[prestidigitator]

...perhaps an Activation roll? With the caveat that you roll the Activation roll vs each target separately instead of once for the entire power.

That's just what I was thinking, Gary. Rep for reading my mind! I'd say an AoE, Autofire, EB, etc. that can have multiple targets and has an Activation Roll can take a, "Rolled vs. Each Target Seperately," for 1/4 less Limitation on the Activation (to a min of -0). I say this, because while your changes of hitting each target are the same, your chances of having some effect with the Power are better.

[Fox1]

That's just what I was thinking, Gary. Rep for reading my mind! I'd say an AoE, Autofire, EB, etc. that can have multiple targets and has an Activation Roll can take a, "Rolled vs. Each Target Seperately," for 1/4 less Limitation on the Activation (to a min of -0). I say this, because while your changes of hitting each target are the same, your chances of having some effect with the Power are better.

That idea occurred to me. However it comes with a number of significant problems.

1. It doesn't represent the fact that grenade effectiveness greatly decreases with range.

2. It doesn't represent the the near impossiblity to avoid injury from modern designs if you're too close.

3. It doesn't represent the effect of cover.


...for starters.

Which may or may not matter depending upon the game's need. But if you're going beyond a simple RKA Explosion, I'd think you'd want to cover those areas as well.

Since you're not avoiding a house rule advantage in either case, I'd think the better option is to go with Firebird's old work.