Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

[Blackberry]

I'm building a character who has 20 STR, 10" Stretching, +4d6 Hand Attack, and 10" Running.

If she does a Move By, how exactly is it calculated? Is Stretching velocity technically part of the Move By velocity, and is Hand Attack technically part of Strength?

A) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 11d6+1
B) (4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 9d6+1
C) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 10d6
D) (4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 8d6

[Hyper-Man]

I'm building a character who has 20 STR, 10" Stretching, +4d6 Hand Attack, and 10" Running.

If she does a Move By, how exactly is it calculated? Is Stretching velocity technically part of the Move By velocity, and is Hand Attack technically part of Strength?

A) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 11d6+1
B) (4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 9d6+1
C) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 10d6
D) (4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 8d6

That's a good question. If I had to guess, I would go with either option A or C since I am pretty sure that HA damage does not get decreased but I am not sure about the velocity damage of Stretching. You may want to post this question to the Rules thread for Steve L. to answer.

HM

[Dust Raven]

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say C is correct, but I'm not sure about adding and max damage stuff. Hopefully Lord Liaden will chime in (I think he's the one who answerd a similar question I had a while back and cleared things up). In any case, I know for a fact that A and B are incorrect, because you can't get 3d6+1 damage from 10" of stretching... actually you can't get a d6+1 from adding damage from movement or stretching... it's whole dice only.

[Supreme Serpent]

(Disclaimer: 4th Ed holdout. No idea on how 5th/5th revised does things.)

I would not consider Stretching to really be a movement power, so would not have it do velocity damage. If 5th does that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course. Someone wanting to use their Stretching to move can use it as a justification for buying extra running/swinging, IMO. Someone wanting to use the "snap" effect for extra damage can buy HA, IMO.

HA should be affected by the divisors just like STR. If 5th doesn't do that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course.

I would consider the move by to be (4d6Str+4d6HA / 2 = 4d6) + 2d6 for Running = 6d6 total.

If Stretching counts as movement, you couldn't use both it and running to get full effect from both. If there's some special "Attacks with Stretching get free damage bonuses" effect in 5th...whatever.

[Dust Raven]

(Disclaimer: 4th Ed holdout. No idea on how 5th/5th revised does things.)

I would not consider Stretching to really be a movement power, so would not have it do velocity damage. If 5th does that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course. Someone wanting to use their Stretching to move can use it as a justification for buying extra running/swinging, IMO. Someone wanting to use the "snap" effect for extra damage can buy HA, IMO.

HA should be affected by the divisors just like STR. If 5th doesn't do that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course.

I would consider the move by to be (4d6Str+4d6HA / 2 = 4d6) + 2d6 for Running = 6d6 total.

If Stretching counts as movement, you couldn't use both it and running to get full effect from both. If there's some special "Attacks with Stretching get free damage bonuses" effect in 5th...whatever.

How it's done now, is that HA doesn't add to STR before being halved by the maneuver. The total for your example would be 8d6. I've been a bit iffy about the velocity for Stretching, but basically the idea is that you limb is striking out 10" away from you, and at the speed it should inflict more damage than when striking adjacent. I hardly every see it come into play however.

[Supreme Serpent]

How it's done now, is that HA doesn't add to STR before being halved by the maneuver. The total for your example would be 8d6. I've been a bit iffy about the velocity for Stretching, but basically the idea is that you limb is striking out 10" away from you, and at the speed it should inflict more damage than when striking adjacent. I hardly every see it come into play however.

Ah, so the extra reach isn't enough of an advantage. I see. I assume that characters with enough Growth to get extra reach don't get the same bonus, even though the effect (ie: reach) is the same.

[prestidigitator]

Ah, so the extra reach isn't enough of an advantage. I see. I assume that characters with enough Growth to get extra reach don't get the same bonus, even though the effect (ie: reach) is the same.

Actually, I believe characters with Growth can add damage to their attack if they perform it as they are growing too. I'm pretty sure that's written up under the Growth Power.

Oh, and (as an aside) if you are comparing Stretching and Growth, note that Growth doubles your reach for a given number of points, whereas Stretching just adds a constant length to your reach for a given number of points. I guess you can technically increase your Non-Combat Stretching, but then you are at 0 OCV, and Growth has no such Limitation....

[prestidigitator]

How it's done now, is that HA doesn't add to STR before being halved by the maneuver. The total for your example would be 8d6. I've been a bit iffy about the velocity for Stretching, but basically the idea is that you limb is striking out 10" away from you, and at the speed it should inflict more damage than when striking adjacent. I hardly every see it come into play however.

Are you sure about that, Dust Raven? Because as far as I know, HA is Strength, it is just Strength that can't be used for anything but damage. I don't see any reason that the velocity damage from Stretching can't add to the velocity damage added by a maneuver like Move By. It makes sense from both a consistency standpoint and a conceptual one (the velocity of your hand--or whatever is doing the striking--is your movement velocity plus the velocity of the appendage relative to you; i.e. the Stretching velocity). In any case, remember that the damage cannot exceed twice the damage of your base attack (hmm. On that note I can't remember. Is the base attack considered just your Strength, or is it your full Strength plus HA?).

[Hyper-Man]

Are you sure about that, Dust Raven? Because as far as I know, HA is Strength, it is just Strength that can't be used for anything but damage. I don't see any reason that the velocity damage from Stretching can't add to the velocity damage added by a maneuver like Move By. It makes sense from both a consistency standpoint and a conceptual one (the velocity of your hand--or whatever is doing the striking--is your movement velocity plus the velocity of the appendage relative to you; i.e. the Stretching velocity). In any case, remember that the damage cannot exceed twice the damage of your base attack (hmm. On that note I can't remember. Is the base attack considered just your Strength, or is it your full Strength plus HA?).

I can't find an FAQ reference to using Stretching acceleration in addition to Move By or Move Through velocity damage but here is one of the related rules regarding HA's from both the old and new FAQ's:
http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs...DVENTURING.htm
http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs...DVENTURING.htm

Q: If a character performs a Move By/Through, can he add his Hand-To-Hand Attack damage to it?

A: Yes, provided the GM believes that makes sense based on the special effects of the HA and the Combat Maneuver. For example, if the HA is defined as a club, a character might be able to run past someone and smash them with it (Move By), but couldn’t use those HA dice when tackling someone (Move Through). In some cases, such as the Battering Ram speedster power in The UNTIL Superpowers Database, a character might buy HA with a Limitation indicating that it only works with Move By/Through. In any event, the damage from the HA dice should not be halved, though the GM is free to do so if he feels that’s necessary to maintain game balance.

With regard to base damage, HA does count as base damage for purposes of doubling via other manuevers.

HM

[Dust Raven]

Ah, so the extra reach isn't enough of an advantage. I see. I assume that characters with enough Growth to get extra reach don't get the same bonus, even though the effect (ie: reach) is the same.

The reach gained from Growth equates to Stretching, and Stretching is used to buy the reach of naturally large characters. There isn't any "velocity" bonus from it though, and when Stretching is used for the reach of large character it's always bought with the "Velocity Doesn't Add Damage" Limitation in all the examples.

Growth does give you extra damage if you attack while growing though, which I suppose works on the same principle as using velocity from Stretching. Instead you are using the "velocity" of suddenly being much taller.

[Dust Raven]

Are you sure about that, Dust Raven? Because as far as I know, HA is Strength, it is just Strength that can't be used for anything but damage. I don't see any reason that the velocity damage from Stretching can't add to the velocity damage added by a maneuver like Move By. It makes sense from both a consistency standpoint and a conceptual one (the velocity of your hand--or whatever is doing the striking--is your movement velocity plus the velocity of the appendage relative to you; i.e. the Stretching velocity). In any case, remember that the damage cannot exceed twice the damage of your base attack (hmm. On that note I can't remember. Is the base attack considered just your Strength, or is it your full Strength plus HA?).

The thing is, HA isn't STR with a Limitation. It's HA. Basically, you can think of it as also being called Damage Class, but has no range and the name Hand Attack sounds more appropriate. The HA Limitation is there to represent there are things you can't do with it that you can do with other attack powers (like spreading an EB, and yes, having no range).

[prestidigitator]

The thing is, HA isn't STR with a Limitation. It's HA. Basically, you can think of it as also being called Damage Class, but has no range and the name Hand Attack sounds more appropriate. The HA Limitation is there to represent there are things you can't do with it that you can do with other attack powers (like spreading an EB, and yes, having no range).

Yeegs. I just re-read it. I guess so.

[prestidigitator]

From 5ed.
Each die of HA adds to the character's regular damage from STR.... This Limitation signifies that the HA damage only works if it adds to a character's damage dice based on STR (in essence, HA is just a Limited form of STR).

I'd say it adds to Str before you divide by 2.

[prestidigitator]

I'd say it adds to Str before you divide by 2.

Oh. Just read the FAQ part posted by someone else, though. As usual, the FAQ states it in the opposite way the book would imply.

[Dust Raven]

(in essence, HA is just a Limited form of STR).

This is one of those things I completely disagree with. It's also about the only thing I feel is wrong and should be omited from the book. This one little phrase. It confuses so many players and removing it wouldn't even change the rules... just stop players from making assumptions about HA.