Alternative Disadvantage Concept

[RDU Neil]

Just a thought... (dangerous, I know)

If I was to "make my own Hero based game" one of the things I would do to simplify character creation, would be to keep Disadvantages purely character oriented, but required... and there would only be three.

Example:

Primary Internal Trait: This is the primary motivating factor of your character, both positive and negative. This is the collection of personality characteristics and psychological impetus for why your character does what they do. As a player, you will be expected to consider and give voice to this Internal Trait whenever critical decisions are made or actions taken by the character. This PIT can be a combination of Psychological Limitations, Physical Limitations or any other disadvantages that combine to define this core facet of the character.

Primary External Factor: This is the major game world aspect that is out of direct character control, but exhibits ongoing and direct influence on them in both positive and negative ways. This PEF has shaped their past, drives their present and informs the foreseeable future. As a player, you will be expected to consider and give voice to this External Factor whenever critical decisions are made or actions taken by the character. This PEF can be a combination of Hunteds, Susceptibilities, Social Limitations or any other disadvantages that combine to define this core facet of the character.

Complication: This is a third factor, either internal or external... which is in conflict with or otherwise complicates the character's ability to handle their PIT, PEF or both. It can be any kind of conflicting goal, desire... pressure from an outside source to act against your Internal Trait... or pressure that pushes the character to antagonize their external factor. It must be a situation or concept that is readily part of the game world, that the character would be expected to interact with on a regular basis. This Complication can be a DNPC, Social Limitation, further Hunted or any other disadvantage that provides the character with dramatic story possibilities.

____

There are no points associated with these. They are just required to establish the core of the character outside the point based abilities on the sheet. (Thus if character were intended to be 350 points to start... they get 350... and making the character just requires them to fill out the PIT, PEF and Complication.)

I'd likely change the name from Disadvantages to something else like "The REAL Character" or whatever. PIT could easily be called "The Grand Motivation" and the PEF "The Big Threat!" or whatever names fit the genre being approximated.

I don't see any need to attach a mechanic or game rule to this (it is a Game Rule of it's own, of course) but if one wanted to do so, it would be easy with a Hero Points, Fate Point, Luck Chit system like "Once per game session, draw a chit when the player directly invokes their PIT, PEF or Complication to drive the story and their character actions." Or... "Player may make a Power Skill roll with plusses if she is directly invoking one of PIT, PEF or Complication as a result. If a character is acting against their "Real Character" they may suffer minuses as appropriate. Whatever... I haven't really thought this through, it just occurred to me as I was writing.

For me, this would better get to what I use "Disads" for... doesn't force players to "work around" disads they don't want... and encourages players to think outside the numbers in creating a character.

(This does not address Power Limitations, which serve a different game purpose than disads, IMO.)

Oh... and within a certain genre/game world... the game rules or the GM could provide a list of suggested PIT, PEF's and complications as examples and/or for pick and choose. Much could come right out of the current Disad list... just combine them as needed and take out the point cost attached to each.

Anyway... just an idea that would better support my play style.

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. It is an interesting idea. It reminds me slightly of the Nature/Demeanor/(Clan/Tribe/Tradition+Essence) aspect of the World of Darkness games; an aspect of the games I like quite a lot. Obviously this is different, but it seems that it provides a similar role in the game, and a similar internal/extenal kind of division.

[devlin1]

Despite my usual love of crunchiness, I like this idea a lot. I know it'd certainly be appealing for most of my non-HERO gaming friends (which is, like, nearly all of them...).

Rep for you.

[RDU Neil]

Hmm. It is an interesting idea. It reminds me slightly of the Nature/Demeanor/(Clan/Tribe/Tradition+Essence) aspect of the World of Darkness games; an aspect of the games I like quite a lot. Obviously this is different, but it seems that it provides a similar role in the game, and a similar internal/extenal kind of division.

I only played WoD a little bit... mostly a Changeling campaign for about 8 episodes... but you are right... this does go that direction... though I hadn't made that connection. Good point. There are no original ideas...

[RDU Neil]

Despite my usual love of crunchiness, I like this idea a lot. I know it'd certainly be appealing for most of my non-HERO gaming friends (which is, like, nearly all of them...).

Rep for you.

Thanks... and it doesn't (on purpose) touch the crunchiness of Char/Skill/Power builds. In many ways, I conceived of it as a direct counter-point to the crunchiness of the rest of the character. Really pushing the player to think both mechanically and thematically... not really blurring the line between them, as Disads seem to do.

[Blue]

Simplify? Go back to FUDGE ya Hippie!!!



Actually this is pretty cool. Don't know if I personally would favor it over the traditional method, but I can see its appeal.

[bluegodjanus]

I think I prefer the complexity of disadvantages. I've never taken a disad I didn't want, but I have thought, 'I need another 15 points to balance my character. What interesting disadvantages could I give him?' I think numerous disadvantages provide a level of complexity and thinking about the character that a simple three traits wouldn't give. It is, however, an interesting system you propose, and personal preference aside it looks like it would work out.

[devlin1]

Thanks... and it doesn't (on purpose) touch the crunchiness of Char/Skill/Power builds. In many ways, I conceived of it as a direct counter-point to the crunchiness of the rest of the character. Really pushing the player to think both mechanically and thematically... not really blurring the line between them, as Disads seem to do.

Right. The biggest complaint I hear about Disads from people who are new to HERO is that "You shouldn't be rewarded in points just for doing what you're supposed to do in the first place: make a good character." I get that point of view. At the same time, I appreciate the existing Disad mechanic, but even I frequently have varying degrees of difficulty with it, especially when I feel a character is Disadvantaged enough-- but if I want to keep up with others in the game, points-wise, I'd better come up with thirty more points of Disads.

Your proposed system skirts the Thirty More Points issue entirely by assuming that each player will want to create an interesting character for no reason other than an enjoyable play experience. I'm all for that.

[nexus]

Personal play style aside, it looks workable.

[ghost-angel]

This is an excellent concept...

But, for those that like Numbers in their game and to keep some crunchy I'd say the GM could add stipulations regarding the number you take and the severity.

Like 1 Major PIT and 1 Minor PIT (CvK and "investigates all leads" for example).

and down the line to get some kind of overall balance between players and something to work with.

Because face it, some players need to be dragged into the creation process kicking and screaming.

[RDU Neil]

This is an excellent concept...

But, for those that like Numbers in their game and to keep some crunchy I'd say the GM could add stipulations regarding the number you take and the severity.

Like 1 Major PIT and 1 Minor PIT (CvK and "investigates all leads" for example).

and down the line to get some kind of overall balance between players and something to work with.

Because face it, some players need to be dragged into the creation process kicking and screaming.

Exactly... and there would also be no change that would stop the GM from using the Disad Mechanic "as written" in the same game, if they choose to do so. Completely "backwards compatible" as it were.

I've just found that while I have no problem with the Disads as they are... some players do... and as a GM, I end up using them as "plot and character hooks" much more often than truly disadvantages. More like "challenges" built into the concept of the character... and hopefully no player would put down a disadvantage that they would not enjoy playing out. It avoids the "Gotta find that last 20 points" as well as giving a larger leeway to the GM on interpreting the "challenge" during game play. The fact that their External Factor is a dark past linked to VIPER (to use the hoary cliche) involves Hunteds and Social Lims and whatever works for the current story/plotline... like, having VIPER show up and attack isn't conducive to the story... but having the character have a flashback to their days as an indoctrinated VIPER assassin in the midst of a battle. No argument that "Hey, I don't have that particular psych lim on my sheet!" because all those elements are wrapped up liberally into the "Dark VIPER Past."

Liberal concept allows for liberal interpretation. It's all good!

[ghost-angel]

definitely all good...

I'm taking notes here.. gonna see if the GM in my current game likes it as well...

[RDU Neil]

And I just realized that I kinda like the term "Challenge."

Internal Challenge

External Challenge

Complication

Hmmm... less sterile, but not perfect. I'll keep thinking.

[prestidigitator]

I only played WoD a little bit... mostly a Changeling campaign for about 8 episodes... but you are right... this does go that direction... though I hadn't made that connection. Good point. There are no original ideas...

Heh. I didn't mean to imply it wasn't original. I just meant that in some ways it has a similar feel to some WoD mechanisms.

(Your only exposure to WoD was Changeling?! Dude. You gotta play some Vampire or Mage or something. Not that Changeling isn't a good game, but...it just lacks the feel in some ways.)

[CourtFool]

While not really related, this makes me think of a post that suggested no points are given for Disadvantages during character creation, but XP are awarded whenever a Disadvantage comes into play during a session.

This is an interesting idea and certainly leans towards Narativist play. I would be willing to try it, just not with any of the groups I have ever played with before. I mean...is self-serving really a disadvantage?