Should CV be a base characteristic?

[zornwil]

I'm just lobbing this one out to see what people say, inspired by the conversation on Aiding OCV.

There are some real consequences to making CV (whether broken out into OCV, DCV, EOCV, etc., or as a simple base stat from which DCV and OCV are derived) a stat - Adjustment Powers being a particularly interesting/relevant source of consequences, though there certainly are others.

[Dust Raven]

It already is a Characteristic. We call it DEX and is also affects your agility skills, DEX rolls and figures into your SPD.

Sorry. I actually think it works fine the way it is. If it ever becomes a Characteristic, it should be for OCV/DCV only and be a Figured Characteristic based off of DEX. What it's cost would be I can't figure. It would end up being cheeper than buying any kind of CSLs though, or else buying DEX would be a better bargin than buying CON.

[CourtFool]

Hey Zorn, which parts of the system are you going to keep? Again, I was glad Hero based combat on DEX. I have never really had an issue with it. Thieves finally got their day in court. There was much rejoicing. If you want your characters to have high OCV and or DCV without being agile...we call them Combat Skill Levels. This being Hero, the SPX can be whatever you like.

[Dust Raven]

This being Hero, the SPX can be whatever you like.

SPX? Special...Post Exchange?

[zornwil]

Hey Zorn, which parts of the system are you going to keep? Again, I was glad Hero based combat on DEX. I have never really had an issue with it. Thieves finally got their day in court. There was much rejoicing. If you want your characters to have high OCV and or DCV without being agile...we call them Combat Skill Levels. This being Hero, the SPX can be whatever you like.

Oh, I don't want to change this at all, just curious what people thought!

Much the same with idle thoughts on scaling advancement. Just in a mood for idle speculation, really, I suppose.

[David Blue]

Oh, I don't want to change this at all, just curious what people thought!

Much the same with idle thoughts on scaling advancement. Just in a mood for idle speculation, really, I suppose.

You have a dangerous mind, Zornwil, and I mean that in a nice way.

My first thought is that if you split up DEX into its component parts, such as DCV, each part becomes more convenient to Drain. From a Martial Artist's point of view, I would prefer whatever gives me my DCV to be as "bundled" as possible.

I don't know what the up-side of that transaction would be, because nobody's mentioned yet a positive aim which this change would be intended to achieve.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's almost a stat now. Figured as 1/3 of DEX, and you can "buy it up" at 5 points per (+1 level for all DCV = 5 points; the same seems reasonable for all OCV).

Do we really need more stats on the sheet? I'd just handwave the ability to apply bonuses with adjustment powers, and we have a choice of mechanics for negatives (while adjustment powers would work OK there was well).

[Sean Waters]

Lessee...

If you carve up DEX, starting at 15 points of DEX = 45CP = +5 OCV, +5 DCV and +3 on DEX rolls and 15 points towards SPEED.

Lop off the 15 points for speed and you are down to 30 points, or about 10 points for OCV, 10 for DCV and 10 for the DEX levels.

So +5 OCV = 10 points.

Hmm.

I can see some pretty high OCV/DCV totals, and some pretty drastic consequences for drains.

What do I think? I think you should keep churning out the interesting questions, but as far as this one goes, I think it is not a keeper.

[zornwil]

Sometimes I throw out stuff that I don't think is sound but just curious to see what others say - you never know what comes out of the woodwork, sometimes.

[Phil]

I dont think it should be a characteristic, but I do think it should be treated as a skill. I dont like games which combine different task resolution mechanics without any good reason, and the CV / Skill resolution in HERO is a classic example.

[austenandrews]

In a lot of ways CV makes more sense as a stat than the current system. Mary Lou Retton might have DEX out the yin-yang but should her CV really be high? Plus it would map better to Hero's effect-based design philosophy. Hugh's point is valid, that it's practically a stat already. The main advantage I can see for tying it to DEX are "barriers to entry" - it's expensive to buy up DEX, and CSLs require some modicum of background justification.

I didn't read the Aiding OCV thread, but isn't it currently possible to Drain a Skill?

[rjcurrie]

In a lot of ways CV makes more sense as a stat than the current system. Mary Lou Retton might have DEX out the yin-yang but should her CV really be high? Plus it would map better to Hero's effect-based design philosophy. Hugh's point is valid, that it's practically a stat already. The main advantage I can see for tying it to DEX are "barriers to entry" - it's expensive to buy up DEX, and CSLs require some modicum of background justification.

I didn't read the Aiding OCV thread, but isn't it currently possible to Drain a Skill?

Given the way DEX is defined in Hero with its effects on Combat, I'd argue that Mary Lou Retton doesn't have a high DEX, she just has a high PS:Gymnastics roll -- and possibly high Acrobatics and Breakfall skills as well.

[Hyper-Man]

...snip...
Mary Lou Retton might have DEX out the yin-yang but should her CV really be high? ...snip...

She instead might have several 2 point Dex Levels as well as 5 point Agility Skill Levels too. In this case she has no high CV because her base DEX is not artificially high.

Seems very similar to the DEX -> SPD figured argument. Easy fix there is to make it NFC. The fix here is similar. Use Skill Levels and maybe Lightning Reflexes where appropriate if the base CV is too high.

HM

[nexus]

Given the way DEX is defined in Hero with its effects on Combat, I'd argue that Mary Lou Retton doesn't have a high DEX, she just has a high PS:Gymnastics roll -- and possibly high Acrobatics and Breakfall skills as well.

And I agree with you whole heartedly. The only issue is with player characters your going to get more High Dex than high skills since its a bit more point officient. Stat Inflation can be a problem (You get statements like NO character should have a dex less 20). There's also the "Great Thief, Great Warrior" issue which is a personal bugaboo of mine.

[austenandrews]

She instead might have several 2 point Dex Levels as well as 5 point Agility Skill Levels too. In this case she has no high CV because her base DEX is not artificially high.

Which seems backwards, when you think about at it. DEX has become synonymous with combat effectiveness, while the intuitive definitions of DEX become special cases.