I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

[Rick]

For my StarWars conversions, in another thread,http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30536, I'm running inot a little issue. In modeling the Sith's ability to hide their presence I decided invisibility is the right choose, for obovious reasons. It'll be simply that they'll make their force attuned nature invisible.

Force Attuned comes with a Distincive feature (convieniently enough) called force attuned. This feature can only be sensed through a special sense, "Detect force". If I make the Distinct feature non-disguiseable, would that imply that you couldn't make it invisible, or does the power over ride the disad. Or should I simply say that it's disguisable with MAJOR effort....

Thoughts????

[Supreme Serpent]

Sounds like you're going the right route to me.

Invisibility trumps distinctive features, IMO. "Face is icky lump of rotten hamburger and has 2' spikes all over body" would normally be "non-concealable", but if he's invisible, no one would notice.

Especially as the force-attunement is a disad ALL force-users have, I'd say it's appropriate as a disad. The Sith have to learn how to conceal it, right? It would be conceivable to have a rookie Sith that could be detected?

[Wanderer]

Regarding Distinctive Features and disguise powers (Invisibility, Shape Shift):

1) if the power is able to conceal the DF while in function, then the DF should be treated as Concealable (maybe with major effort if the power is heavily limited and cannot be used often). This is generally the case for "power side effects" DF that affect the normal senses (green skin, glowing aura, odd eyes, etc.). Otherwise, the disguise power is useless.

2) If the power does not affect the DF, then treat it as normal. This is typically the case with the "exotic" DF that come as a side effect of powers (energy signature, mystic aura, mutant, psi, evil/divine aura). Since they are generally detected by unsual senses (Detects) only, which are restricted to other supers, mystics, magical objects, and super-tech, this is generally fine. The main purpose of the disguise power (concealing the character from usual senses and mundanes) is preserved. In special cases (generally for devious characters whose shtick is to disguise even from other supers or mystics, such as our beloved friend Sidious/Palpatine) it may even work for the "power signature" DF. In that case, treat as Concealable.

[Sean Waters]

Wanderer has pretty much covered it. However might I add that a disadvantage that doesn't limit you is not worth points? If you have an evil aura that you can basically switch off and keep off at will then it is not worth points.

Your ability to disguise your nature should be subject to limitations which mean that either it is not always reliable OR there is a cost (probably END) to use it.

[prestidigitator]

If they their DF is concealed 100% all the time, I'd say they have just bought it off. If they want to buy a Power to conceal it, they have to buy it off part-way (just consider it part of the cost of the Power, if you like). That is actually exactly the way I have handled this ability myself.

BTW, it is an aside, but I don't think this is specific to the Sith; Yoda and Obi-Wan hide their presence pretty effectively, since they are still alive at the beginning of A New Hope. Actually, I don't believe particular Force powers are specific to the Dark Side at all, as D20 Star Wars (and maybe the other system before it--never really went through it) would have you believe. Yoda uses Force Lightning in Phantom Menace, and Luke chokes the guards at Jabba's Palace enough to get them out of the way in Return of the Jedi (some people insist this is because he was turning to the Dark Side at this point, but I don't buy it). I think it is more the emotion and intent behind the use of the powers that matters. I have been thinking about if and how to handle this mechanically. It is a tricky one.

[Wanderer]

Wanderer has pretty much covered it. However might I add that a disadvantage that doesn't limit you is not worth points? If you have an evil aura that you can basically switch off and keep off at will then it is not worth points.

Your ability to disguise your nature should be subject to limitations which mean that either it is not always reliable OR there is a cost (probably END) to use it.

There is a third possibility: the nature of the power per se might make inconvenient to use it all the time to hide the DF. I.e. if the Dark Sith Lord or Demonic Superbeing has to stay invisible or shapeshifted as a puny unassuming mundane to cover their evil aura, then it's quite probable they'll spend a signficant chunk of their time undisguised (in combat, when they have to address followers and look intimidating, etc.)

If they their DF is concealed 100% all the time, I'd say they have just bought it off. If they want to buy a Power to conceal it, they have to buy it off part-way (just consider it part of the cost of the Power, if you like).

In other words, they'll have to buy their Distinctive Feature as Concealable, just like I said

[Rick]

So if you have a 3 foot horn coming out of your head, ussually a non-concealable disad,and you had Invisibility, it would be a concealable with major effort disad? I can buy that, it's just got me thinking that's all.

As to whether or not it's a sith only power, well that's for another thread.

[Rick]

I have to admit though, the sith example is different context then the Horned character.

What if you bought the Invisibilty some time after creating the or buying the power???

[Supreme]

If someone has the ability to conceal their distinctive feature, then the feature is concealable. Turning yourself completely invisible is not the same thing. Making your force attunement invisible means that you can now move amongst the Jedi unnoticed. You can talk to them and ask them for seemingly innocuous favors. Someone who is completely invisible is someone who has completely removed themselves from all interaction, like Desolidification. You should also consider whether or not the invisibility is constant, persistent, 0 END, etc.

[Rick]

You will note, Supreme, that I realized and mentioned that in my last post. Still what happens if the power to conceal is developed after the inception of the character, GM judgement I suppose. I'd probably make the PC buy down the disad.

[Greatwyrm]

I'd probably make the PC buy down the disad.

Seems easier than fiddling with Invisibiblity.

[Dust Raven]

For this specific case, I'd probably rule that the Disad is reduced from Non Concealable to Concealable with Effort or Easily Concealable (depending on the ease of use of the Invisibility). The Invisibility is specifically designed to hide the DF, so the DF is affected.

An alternate route is to forget buying Invisibility and just say that the DF is concealed if the character meets certain requirements (like not using his Powers or spending END) and buy it at the level appropriate to the method of concealment. I typically prefer this method over using a Power who's only purpose is to hide a DF. It reminds me of buying Extra Limbs (tenticles) on a character with PhysLim: No Arms and Legs.

[prestidigitator]

In other words, they'll have to buy their Distinctive Feature as Concealable, just like I said

Yes. I wasn't trying to contradict you. I was simply adding a little more detail, and the suggestion that the lack of the Disadvantage could be considered, "part of the Power."

[prestidigitator]

I have to admit though, the sith example is different context then the Horned character.

Not really. The Sith's quality of being detectable is like a really, really big horn that is detectable with an unusual sense, rather than Sight and Touch.

What if you bought the Invisibilty some time after creating the or buying the power???

Who cares? Just consider the character to be a state machine; history doesn't have to matter.

[prestidigitator]

If someone has the ability to conceal their distinctive feature, then the feature is concealable. Turning yourself completely invisible is not the same thing. Making your force attunement invisible means that you can now move amongst the Jedi unnoticed. You can talk to them and ask them for seemingly innocuous favors. Someone who is completely invisible is someone who has completely removed themselves from all interaction, like Desolidification. You should also consider whether or not the invisibility is constant, persistent, 0 END, etc.

Hmm. You could always give the Invisibility a Fringe. Then you may not be able to quite walk amongst them.