Math as a language

[Sociotard]

One of the gimmicks I've seen in more "realistic" scifi is using mathematics to communicate (or at least establish a basis for communication).

Have you ever used anything like that? Would it be SS: Mathematics, Cryptography, or language: Math, basic conversation? I guess universal translator would work, but somehow I don't like the idea.

[paigeoliver]

I have always found that idea a little sketchy, it assumes a bit too much. It assumes (at minimum) that said society has (or understands the concept of) a binary mathematics system.

It seems simple and logical to us because of the way our brains function. While there may be other species who are more advanced than we are that would never even catch it.

An alien species might have brains on such a level that math is unneeded. If the aliens were all just lightning calculators who intuitively "knew" the answer to any mathematical problem then you would find that math would barely even exist as a concept, much less a science. It would be like us developing a science to tell if something was red or blue by looking at it. Telling if something is red or blue by sight is not a problem because we just KNOW, aliens could be the same way with math (but could very well have an uber-complicated color-science based on their poor color vision, and they could be trying to communicate with US based on the OBVIOUSLY universal language of colors, using the standard representations of their 7 base colors, only 2 of which are visible to us).

The aliens might have a traditional mathematical system, but they might be using an odd base number (like 7, or 53) and be completely unable to grasp math in any other base. Just because WE can understand math in bases other than 10 doesn't mean that aliens can. The aliens might be equally baffled as to why we cannot understand their "Base 7, plus texture, colour, and musical note" mathematics system.

Even if you can get math concepts through, translating those to non-mathematical concepts (to alien minds no less), is probably going to be a lot more difficult than it is in the movies.

[Inu]

*nods to PaigeOliver* Even if you can agree on what symbols mean, number-wise, actual MEANING in a non-mathematical sense is different.

StarGate (a series I love) had an episode which revolved around an ancient meeting place for four extremely old species. In it was a display which the characters made the deduction was something like a translator. Using the elemental atoms to form the basis of language, it created a true universal language due to the fact that everyone could agree on what the symbols meant.

I never bought it. Even if we can agree that this particular atom is hydrogen and this is helium, how do I relate the concept of 'tree?' (Of course, I could relate the chemical formula of 'wood', but that won't necessarily work well if the species I'm talking to has never seen wood, and wood of course is not a tree. Then you get ephemeral concepts such as emotions.)

No-one's ever been able to explain that to me, even fervent defenders of the notion.

A concept like mathematics might work for initiating communication. I've seen it used, if only to show 'look! We're an intelligent species too!' by breaking down symbols and things into pulses and the like. Multiplication tables by morse.

Actually communicating concepts by maths... that would take longer.

I could certainly see a possibility somewhere, though. Translating languages becomes MUCH easier (in fact, it becomes possible, as opposed to impossible) once you have common meaning associated with particular words or phrases. So you could use mathematics to figure out certain portions of the other guy's language, and then use that to get a kind of rosetta stone effect. 'Oh, their language works this way, so "flerf" must mean "Hi."'

So I can see it working that way. But not really as a language in and of itself.

Rules-wise, I'd call it something which allows you to use 'SS: linguist' or the like to translate, or perhaps SS: Mathematics as a complimentary skill to SS: linguist.

[austenandrews]

A concept like mathematics might work for initiating communication.

I think that was always the idea, at least in the works that I've read. If an intelligent species has some way of describing the universe common to us all, then we can eventually match up our separate expressions of common scientific concepts (numbers, say, or the periodic chart) because the patterns will work out the same. If we can communicate this handful of basic ideas, we can build from there. The number of basic ideas that easily match scales up depending on how close our modes of thought and communication happen to be.

It definitely wouldn't qualify as Universal Translator or anything so robust. Cryptography + SS might be the better game mechanic.